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I'm Jewish and I believe that Palestine should be a single democratic state that guarantees rights to all. No one has a right to an ethnostate, not even us. You

I'm Jewish and I believe that Palestine should be a single democratic state that guarantees rights to all. No one has a right to an ethnostate, not even us. You see directly where this thinking leads — genocide.

exe34 3y ago
Last time the Palestinians in Gaza got a vote, they voted Hamas, which has a charter based on eradication of the Jews. Are you sure you want them voting in the same state as you?
- tehjoker 3y ago
  You must recognize that Hamas was elected after the continuous failure of the PLO to win concessions after Oslo, which abandoned the guiding principles of International Law in favor of "trusting the parties", but Israel, the more powerful party was able to dictate terms. A return to root cause analysis combined with the just principles of international law will see a fair deal. Arabs do not want to fight, they just want to be able to go home. The fascist behavior I see coming from Israelis is completely repulsive and against everything I thought my religion stood for. From the Hamas charter (2017). "6. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity." https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
nickff 3y ago
Jewish people have been murdered & driven out of almost every other middle-eastern country (where they used to be substantial parts of the population). What are their chances of surviving in an Arab-dominated Palestine? Note that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian authority is particularly keen on democracy.
- shilgapira 3y ago
  > What are their chances of surviving in an Arab-dominated Palestine? Absolutely zero, and the people proposing this know that. That tells you all you need to know, really. [1] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/jewishrefmap.jpg https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/jew...
- Sporktacular 3y ago
  Okay. So get behind a two-state solution then.
vladgur 3y ago
Israel has a 20% Arab population who have the same rights as non-Arab citizens. They work in schools, hospitals, government, including the supreme court. On other hand, Palestinians living in Gaza have elected a terrorist group[1] to govern them nearly two decades ago and have been subject to UN-sponsored education that teaches kids to hate Jews[2] for decades. A single democratic state of Palestine with Palestinians and Israelis co-existing is impossible with current Palestinian leadership and the generations taught hatred. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e... [2] https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-new-report/ https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-...
charred_patina 3y ago
As a westerner, I have never heard a single person in the western sphere mention a peaceful, non-occupational one state solution. How common is the idea of a democratic single state solution in Israeli politics? Do the advocates for it have a plan for dealing with the backlash from extremists on both sides? I'd like to read more about it. Now in the west it seems like even the two-state solution isn't up for discussion post-Trump.
- tehjoker 3y ago
  It is a marginal opinion, but in my view the only one that offers a chance at real peace. Here's a piece on it: https://www.palestinechronicle.com/one-democratic-state-palestine-israel-or-palestine-israel/ https://www.palestinechronicle.com/one-democratic-state-pale...
- toyg 3y ago
  The idea is common, but is rejected by the Israeli mainstream because they fear demographic changes - Palestinians are poor, so they have bigger families, hence eventually they would outnumber ethnic Jews and <insert fear here>. If this sounds very similar to "great replacement" fears in US and Europe, it's because it is based on the exact same principles: the concept that a state's ethnic composition should be fundamentally immutable, and it's legitimate to fight against any threat to this immutability with discriminatory laws (or worse). Unsurprisingly, that means that the European right, these days, have largely dropped their traditional antisemitism, and will happily share a platform with the Israeli government. The fact that a purposely Jewish state now cooperates with the heirs of Hitler and Mussolini should surely appear revolting to Israeli citizens. Alas, it does not.
  - alexisread 3y ago
    Funnily enough, these arguments also deliberately ignore second generations, which by virtue of living in the country, they form a more cohesive identity based on the country itself, so diluting this ethnic composition in usually a positive fashion.
shilgapira 3y ago
> No one has a right to an ethnostate Israel is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the western world. In particular, it is more ethnically diverse than almost every single country in Europe. What ethnostate? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level#/media/File:List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level,_List_based_on_Fearon's_analysis.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...
- Sporktacular 3y ago
  How it is is not the same as how some would wish it to be.

exe34 3y ago

Last time the Palestinians in Gaza got a vote, they voted Hamas, which has a charter based on eradication of the Jews. Are you sure you want them voting in the same state as you?

tehjoker 3y ago
You must recognize that Hamas was elected after the continuous failure of the PLO to win concessions after Oslo, which abandoned the guiding principles of International Law in favor of "trusting the parties", but Israel, the more powerful party was able to dictate terms. A return to root cause analysis combined with the just principles of international law will see a fair deal. Arabs do not want to fight, they just want to be able to go home. The fascist behavior I see coming from Israelis is completely repulsive and against everything I thought my religion stood for. From the Hamas charter (2017). "6. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity." https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

nickff 3y ago

Jewish people have been murdered & driven out of almost every other middle-eastern country (where they used to be substantial parts of the population). What are their chances of surviving in an Arab-dominated Palestine? Note that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian authority is particularly keen on democracy.

shilgapira 3y ago
> What are their chances of surviving in an Arab-dominated Palestine? Absolutely zero, and the people proposing this know that. That tells you all you need to know, really. [1] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/jewishrefmap.jpg https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/jew...
Sporktacular 3y ago
Okay. So get behind a two-state solution then.

vladgur 3y ago

Israel has a 20% Arab population who have the same rights as non-Arab citizens. They work in schools, hospitals, government, including the supreme court. On other hand, Palestinians living in Gaza have elected a terrorist group[1] to govern them nearly two decades ago and have been subject to UN-sponsored education that teaches kids to hate Jews[2] for decades. A single democratic state of Palestine with Palestinians and Israelis co-existing is impossible with current Palestinian leadership and the generations taught hatred. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e... [2] https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-new-report/ https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-...

charred_patina 3y ago

As a westerner, I have never heard a single person in the western sphere mention a peaceful, non-occupational one state solution. How common is the idea of a democratic single state solution in Israeli politics? Do the advocates for it have a plan for dealing with the backlash from extremists on both sides? I'd like to read more about it. Now in the west it seems like even the two-state solution isn't up for discussion post-Trump.

tehjoker 3y ago
It is a marginal opinion, but in my view the only one that offers a chance at real peace. Here's a piece on it: https://www.palestinechronicle.com/one-democratic-state-palestine-israel-or-palestine-israel/ https://www.palestinechronicle.com/one-democratic-state-pale...
toyg 3y ago
The idea is common, but is rejected by the Israeli mainstream because they fear demographic changes - Palestinians are poor, so they have bigger families, hence eventually they would outnumber ethnic Jews and <insert fear here>. If this sounds very similar to "great replacement" fears in US and Europe, it's because it is based on the exact same principles: the concept that a state's ethnic composition should be fundamentally immutable, and it's legitimate to fight against any threat to this immutability with discriminatory laws (or worse). Unsurprisingly, that means that the European right, these days, have largely dropped their traditional antisemitism, and will happily share a platform with the Israeli government. The fact that a purposely Jewish state now cooperates with the heirs of Hitler and Mussolini should surely appear revolting to Israeli citizens. Alas, it does not.
- alexisread 3y ago
  Funnily enough, these arguments also deliberately ignore second generations, which by virtue of living in the country, they form a more cohesive identity based on the country itself, so diluting this ethnic composition in usually a positive fashion.

shilgapira 3y ago

> No one has a right to an ethnostate Israel is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the western world. In particular, it is more ethnically diverse than almost every single country in Europe. What ethnostate? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level#/media/File:List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level,_List_based_on_Fearon's_analysis.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

Sporktacular 3y ago
How it is is not the same as how some would wish it to be.