4 ms·

In a world where Docker and Kubernetes exist, where whole copies of operating systems are added to each running service... This seems a weird thing to complain

by Shorel 3y ago

In a world where Docker and Kubernetes exist, where whole copies of operating systems are added to each running service... This seems a weird thing to complain about =)

kentonv 3y ago
I mean, if you ran every single executable on your desktop in a separate container I think you'd see problems. There are a pretty large number of programs running on most desktops, plus all the programs that get called by shell scripts, etc. Running a handful of containers representing major applications is more reasonable and the memory wastage may be worth it to avoid dependency conflicts.
- drakenot 3y ago
  You've just described Qubes OS!
  - palata 3y ago
    Except that QubesOS uses VMs for their security benefits, which are greater than those of containers. Containers make a lot of sense to me on servers ("deploy a controlled environment"), but often on Desktop I feel like they are used as a solution to "I don't know how to handle dependencies" or "My dependencies are so unstable that it is impossible to install them system-wide", both of which should be solved by making slightly better software.
- Gabrys1 3y ago
  Each electron app is like that
lnxg33k1 3y ago
Yeah but there I can still update vulnerable libraries independently, to be a statically linked system just means that if there is a bug in libpng then I have to recompile everything?
- bzzzt 3y ago
  Yes, although it very much depends on how big 'everything' is if that's a problem.
- greyw 3y ago
  In most cases relinking is enough.
- Shorel 3y ago
  I was under the impression only Gentoo users recompile everything. In a statically linked system, your dependency manager will update more packages. And if your program is written in C/C++/Go/Rust, then yes, it will be recompiled.
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    I use Gentoo, so I am not against rebuild everything, but afaik unless you have static-libs USE flag for something, it's dynamically linked so relinking on rebuilding the dependency is enough, with static-libs the dependent package is also rebuilt
- colonwqbang 3y ago
  Not recompile I guess, but you need to relink everything. Oasis seems to have a good way of doing that, with the whole system being built in a single tree by an efficient build tool (my recollection from last time it was posted). A dynamic executable needs to relink every time it's run, which also takes time.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > if there is a bug in libpng then I have to recompile everything? You say that as if it's such a burden. But it's really not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the space argument, but a package manager/docker registry means that updating software is very easy. And it happens all the time for other reasons today anyhow.
palata 3y ago
> This seems a weird thing to complain about =) On the contrary, I find it relevant: I think that the modern way is wasting way, way too much.
- Shorel 3y ago
  On that respect, we agree.

by Shorel 3y ago

In a world where Docker and Kubernetes exist, where whole copies of operating systems are added to each running service... This seems a weird thing to complain about =)

kentonv 3y ago

I mean, if you ran every single executable on your desktop in a separate container I think you'd see problems. There are a pretty large number of programs running on most desktops, plus all the programs that get called by shell scripts, etc. Running a handful of containers representing major applications is more reasonable and the memory wastage may be worth it to avoid dependency conflicts.

drakenot 3y ago
You've just described Qubes OS!
- palata 3y ago
  Except that QubesOS uses VMs for their security benefits, which are greater than those of containers. Containers make a lot of sense to me on servers ("deploy a controlled environment"), but often on Desktop I feel like they are used as a solution to "I don't know how to handle dependencies" or "My dependencies are so unstable that it is impossible to install them system-wide", both of which should be solved by making slightly better software.
Gabrys1 3y ago
Each electron app is like that

lnxg33k1 3y ago

Yeah but there I can still update vulnerable libraries independently, to be a statically linked system just means that if there is a bug in libpng then I have to recompile everything?

bzzzt 3y ago
Yes, although it very much depends on how big 'everything' is if that's a problem.
greyw 3y ago
In most cases relinking is enough.
Shorel 3y ago
I was under the impression only Gentoo users recompile everything. In a statically linked system, your dependency manager will update more packages. And if your program is written in C/C++/Go/Rust, then yes, it will be recompiled.
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  I use Gentoo, so I am not against rebuild everything, but afaik unless you have static-libs USE flag for something, it's dynamically linked so relinking on rebuilding the dependency is enough, with static-libs the dependent package is also rebuilt
colonwqbang 3y ago
Not recompile I guess, but you need to relink everything. Oasis seems to have a good way of doing that, with the whole system being built in a single tree by an efficient build tool (my recollection from last time it was posted). A dynamic executable needs to relink every time it's run, which also takes time.
nordsieck 3y ago
> if there is a bug in libpng then I have to recompile everything? You say that as if it's such a burden. But it's really not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the space argument, but a package manager/docker registry means that updating software is very easy. And it happens all the time for other reasons today anyhow.

palata 3y ago

> This seems a weird thing to complain about =) On the contrary, I find it relevant: I think that the modern way is wasting way, way too much.

Shorel 3y ago
On that respect, we agree.