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Who should pay for API development and maintenance? The thing that Apple (and most other platform vendors) have failed at isn’t the charging a fair price. It’s

Who should pay for API development and maintenance? The thing that Apple (and most other platform vendors) have failed at isn’t the charging a fair price. It’s the delivering fair value. Given the amount they take the APIs, docs, tooling, support, etc should be much higher quality. They’re selling a product (access to people and APIs) and they’re doing an excellent job of giving developers a larger and larger pie to eat from, but they need to make the utensils better.

mcmcmc 3y ago
Uhhh how about the users who purchase the hardware and use the apps?
ensignavenger 3y ago
There users buy a phone- giving Apple money... with an OS as part of the deal. An OS is by definition an way to run apps, or an API to the phone hardware. If iPhones couldn't run apps, they wouldn't sell a bazillion of them every year.
- bberenberg 3y ago
  That's literally not the deal. The deal is you get a phone with an OS, and an App Store on which you can get free or paid apps. Plus dynamic content via web browser etc. Developers know they have to pay a fee if they want to transact with these customers. The only people here trying to break the "deal" are consenting developers that decided they want to have their cake and eat it too. I built an entire company on top of a similar platform in the past. The take rate isn't the issue, it's the developer experience and associated operational costs, but since there isn't' a great narrative to rally the general public around to force Apple to provide better docs, this is the approach Epic and co have taken. PS. An operating system may be by definition a way to run apps, but it is not by definition something you can do anything you want with. For example, I can't take the Linux kernel make it closed source.
  - ensignavenger 3y ago
    The EU parliament is hardly a group of developers. There are plenty of iPhone owners that want the freedom to run whatever apps they want to on their phones, too. Further, I never said anything about what the "deal" was. I simply said that there are plenty of ways for Apple to make plenty of money without charging a per installation fee on every app that gets installed/updated on every iOS device.
jevoten 3y ago
Who will pay for gas-pump development and maintenance, if we allow drivers to pump gas from pumps not authorized by and partnered with their car manufacturer?
goosedragons 3y ago
Who should pay for SoC and camera development? The case design? The API and OS are part of the product just like the hardware. If you could buy a no OS iPhone with actual options and documentation for other alternative OSs to operate correctly and take advantage of the hardware maybe it would be worth having a discussion on the value of API development and maintenance. But with the way Apple sells the iPhone the OS is as much of the product as the rest of it.
w4 3y ago
You’ve got this all backwards. OS and hardware developers need software. Their devices are useless without it. It’s why the infamous Ballmer “developers, developers, developers” clip exists. This is why OS developers and hardware manufacturers invest so heavily in developer tooling. They need to make it easy for developers to make software on the platform, because it is useless without that software. They need developers, and it is in their financial interest to create good tooling for them for this reason, hold conferences to encourage them to make software for their platforms, and so forth. They wouldn’t do any of this if it weren’t critical to their business model. How do you know this to be true? Because there are many real world examples that show what happens when you don't have developer support for your OS or device. I can make the greatest OS in the world, but if it doesn't have good software support, it will fail. This is a big part of why, for example, Linux on the desktop has always struggled. It's why BeOS failed. It's why Microsoft is struggling to compete with Sony in gaming right now. It's why the Windows Phone failed. And on and on. Apple is trying to flip the script here. They have a dominant platform, and now want to leverage it to extract greater value for themselves. That’s what businesses do - fair enough. Microsoft did the same thing in the 90s. But I believe that it’s a short sighted strategy which destroys long-term business value. If Apple sufficiently alienates developers they run a real risk of finding themselves in a difficult position where their devices lack critical software in a few years’ time, especially when they are launching an entirely new device (Vision Pro) that desperately needs good native software to succeed.
- bberenberg 3y ago
  I would encourage you to talk to iOS devs and see what their opinions are on tooling, docs, and API quality. My experience has been that they're very unhappy with all of the above.
  - w4 3y ago
    True. And this is yet another data point to support my thesis: The state of the tooling and docs, along with Apple's increasingly aggressive approach towards developer incomes, all gives the impression of an arrogant institution which has lost its understanding of the symbiotic relationship it's in with its stakeholders. It is often at this point that future business and shareholder value is destroyed. I really hope they turn it around, because their devices are incredible. Their hardware team has been absolutely killing it for the past few years.

mcmcmc 3y ago

Uhhh how about the users who purchase the hardware and use the apps?

ensignavenger 3y ago

There users buy a phone- giving Apple money... with an OS as part of the deal. An OS is by definition an way to run apps, or an API to the phone hardware. If iPhones couldn't run apps, they wouldn't sell a bazillion of them every year.

bberenberg 3y ago
That's literally not the deal. The deal is you get a phone with an OS, and an App Store on which you can get free or paid apps. Plus dynamic content via web browser etc. Developers know they have to pay a fee if they want to transact with these customers. The only people here trying to break the "deal" are consenting developers that decided they want to have their cake and eat it too. I built an entire company on top of a similar platform in the past. The take rate isn't the issue, it's the developer experience and associated operational costs, but since there isn't' a great narrative to rally the general public around to force Apple to provide better docs, this is the approach Epic and co have taken. PS. An operating system may be by definition a way to run apps, but it is not by definition something you can do anything you want with. For example, I can't take the Linux kernel make it closed source.
- ensignavenger 3y ago
  The EU parliament is hardly a group of developers. There are plenty of iPhone owners that want the freedom to run whatever apps they want to on their phones, too. Further, I never said anything about what the "deal" was. I simply said that there are plenty of ways for Apple to make plenty of money without charging a per installation fee on every app that gets installed/updated on every iOS device.

jevoten 3y ago

Who will pay for gas-pump development and maintenance, if we allow drivers to pump gas from pumps not authorized by and partnered with their car manufacturer?

goosedragons 3y ago

Who should pay for SoC and camera development? The case design? The API and OS are part of the product just like the hardware. If you could buy a no OS iPhone with actual options and documentation for other alternative OSs to operate correctly and take advantage of the hardware maybe it would be worth having a discussion on the value of API development and maintenance. But with the way Apple sells the iPhone the OS is as much of the product as the rest of it.

w4 3y ago

You’ve got this all backwards. OS and hardware developers need software. Their devices are useless without it. It’s why the infamous Ballmer “developers, developers, developers” clip exists. This is why OS developers and hardware manufacturers invest so heavily in developer tooling. They need to make it easy for developers to make software on the platform, because it is useless without that software. They need developers, and it is in their financial interest to create good tooling for them for this reason, hold conferences to encourage them to make software for their platforms, and so forth. They wouldn’t do any of this if it weren’t critical to their business model. How do you know this to be true? Because there are many real world examples that show what happens when you don't have developer support for your OS or device. I can make the greatest OS in the world, but if it doesn't have good software support, it will fail. This is a big part of why, for example, Linux on the desktop has always struggled. It's why BeOS failed. It's why Microsoft is struggling to compete with Sony in gaming right now. It's why the Windows Phone failed. And on and on. Apple is trying to flip the script here. They have a dominant platform, and now want to leverage it to extract greater value for themselves. That’s what businesses do - fair enough. Microsoft did the same thing in the 90s. But I believe that it’s a short sighted strategy which destroys long-term business value. If Apple sufficiently alienates developers they run a real risk of finding themselves in a difficult position where their devices lack critical software in a few years’ time, especially when they are launching an entirely new device (Vision Pro) that desperately needs good native software to succeed.

bberenberg 3y ago
I would encourage you to talk to iOS devs and see what their opinions are on tooling, docs, and API quality. My experience has been that they're very unhappy with all of the above.
- w4 3y ago
  True. And this is yet another data point to support my thesis: The state of the tooling and docs, along with Apple's increasingly aggressive approach towards developer incomes, all gives the impression of an arrogant institution which has lost its understanding of the symbiotic relationship it's in with its stakeholders. It is often at this point that future business and shareholder value is destroyed. I really hope they turn it around, because their devices are incredible. Their hardware team has been absolutely killing it for the past few years.