4 ms·

No, but given two points in time, one can determine which are the center, left, and right views at each point, and see how much each group moved from those and

No, but given two points in time, one can determine which are the center, left, and right views at each point, and see how much each group moved from those and at what direction. That is, the center/left/right doesn't have to be an "absolute objectively defined concept". That "what is center" can change over time is irrelevant. To see if people moved to the left or right compared to, say, the 90s, you just need to know what was the center baseline in the 90s. The comparison is relative.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
The left is defined as moving. That's what "progressive" means. For 100 years there was a clear pattern where the center adopted the views of the left about 20 years after the left did, and the right about 20 years after the center. This pattern no longer holds.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  It never held all that much. The 'progressive' movement used to support eugenics as far late as the 1960s in some places. And economic freedom used to be seen as a conservative value exclusively prior to the 1980s and 1990s, but today it has contributed to lifting billions of people out of poverty, and many on the "neo-liberal" left support it. More recently, the left is also slowly moving towards supporting a preference for skilled over unskilled immigration to protect vulnerable and marginalized citizens' jobs and reduce concerns over social frictions, something that used to only be a talking point for conservatives.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Economic freedom has always been a key Liberal value. Protecting jobs has always been a key left value.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >The left is defined as moving. That's what "progressive" means It's a little more complicated than that. Progressive and left can coincide in some cases, but they're not the same thing. Left ideas were often deemed "regressive", both in the economic and social domains. In fact, according to Marx himself, capitalism (the essense of the "right" in European terms) is a revolutionary movement itself, which breaks down all established traditional order and social conventions. And inversely, leftish causes, were often considered as anti-progress: the protection of workers from automation, environmental issues ("tree-huggers"), protesting against GMOs or nuclear power, celebrating native cultures, and of course protesting modernity and consumer society (a massive theme in the 60s and 70s leftist movements). And of course in the 19th century, a huge number of leftist intellectuals were Romantics or close - against the rise of industry and alienation. The reality is that the "progressivist" element, an inherently capitalistic dynamic (historically only partially shared with some parts of the left), has increasingly eaten up the folksy elements of the left, to the point that the modern left is mostly an upper middle class movement.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

The left is defined as moving. That's what "progressive" means. For 100 years there was a clear pattern where the center adopted the views of the left about 20 years after the left did, and the right about 20 years after the center. This pattern no longer holds.

zozbot234 3y ago
It never held all that much. The 'progressive' movement used to support eugenics as far late as the 1960s in some places. And economic freedom used to be seen as a conservative value exclusively prior to the 1980s and 1990s, but today it has contributed to lifting billions of people out of poverty, and many on the "neo-liberal" left support it. More recently, the left is also slowly moving towards supporting a preference for skilled over unskilled immigration to protect vulnerable and marginalized citizens' jobs and reduce concerns over social frictions, something that used to only be a talking point for conservatives.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Economic freedom has always been a key Liberal value. Protecting jobs has always been a key left value.
coldtea 3y ago
>The left is defined as moving. That's what "progressive" means It's a little more complicated than that. Progressive and left can coincide in some cases, but they're not the same thing. Left ideas were often deemed "regressive", both in the economic and social domains. In fact, according to Marx himself, capitalism (the essense of the "right" in European terms) is a revolutionary movement itself, which breaks down all established traditional order and social conventions. And inversely, leftish causes, were often considered as anti-progress: the protection of workers from automation, environmental issues ("tree-huggers"), protesting against GMOs or nuclear power, celebrating native cultures, and of course protesting modernity and consumer society (a massive theme in the 60s and 70s leftist movements). And of course in the 19th century, a huge number of leftist intellectuals were Romantics or close - against the rise of industry and alienation. The reality is that the "progressivist" element, an inherently capitalistic dynamic (historically only partially shared with some parts of the left), has increasingly eaten up the folksy elements of the left, to the point that the modern left is mostly an upper middle class movement.