4 ms·

tl;dr Let’s start with the extortion regime that’ll befell any large developer who might be tempted to try hosting their app in one of these new alternative ap

tl;dr Let’s start with the extortion regime that’ll befell any large developer who might be tempted to try hosting their app in one of these new alternative app stores that the EU forced Apple to allow. And let’s take Meta as a good example. Their Instagram app alone is used by over 300 million people in Europe. Let’s just say for easy math there’s 250 million of those in the EU. In order to distribute Instagram on, say, a new Microsoft iOS App Store, Meta would have to pay Apple $11,277,174 PER MONTH(!!!) as a “Core Technology Fee”. That’s $135 MILLION DOLLARS per year. Just for the privilege of putting Instagram into a competing store. No fee if they stay in Apple’s App Store exclusively.

bzzzt 3y ago
Why would I care as a consumer? And why act like it's a disgrace? Somebody has to pay for the 'core technology' Apple develops. I think Facebook can handle a fee of 1/1000 of their yearly revenue. If it's about licensing why doesn't the EU go after Microsoft or Oracle? Especially the second one has a tendency to get very creative with licensing requirements.
- pmx 3y ago
  I Paid for the core technology when I PAID THEM FOR THE FREAKING PHONE
  - wdb 3y ago
    Clearly not
    - mcmcmc 3y ago
      Thanks for the valuable contribution
  - hellisothers 3y ago
    What if you don’t though? I’m not saying it’s accurate but what if they were like “ok you can side-load but we didn’t price that into the $1000 phone, side-loading costs $4000”
    - pmx 3y ago
      Then Samsung's market share goes up?
- jevoten 3y ago
  I would think it would be obvious why consumers should care about a handful of corporations acting like feudal lords and controlling what smaller developers can do, technically or economically. To spell it out: because you are affected. In the best case scenario, only the Apple tax is passed on to you. In the worst case, the app you get will be discreetly censored at Apple's whims [1,2,3]. But of course you can rely on altruistic developers willing to forego half of the mobile market to get uncensored apps. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20903613/apple-hiding-taiwan-flag-emoji-hong-kong-macau-china https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20903613/apple-hiding-tai... [2] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-china-tv-protesters-hong-kong-tim-cook https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-ch... [3] https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-pulls-hong-kong-cop-tracking-map-app-after-china-uproar-11570681464 https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-pulls-hong-kong-cop-track...
  - bzzzt 3y ago
    Of course there's ample evidence Apple is not on the brink of bankruptcy, but we've settled for current IP laws which permit companies to own stuff and charge consumers for it. If the price is too high consumers won't buy but given the current state of the app store it doesn't look like there's a lack of people and companies building apps despite the "Apple tax". I'm not entirely against opening up the app store but it remains to be seen if that would change things for the better. Apple may censor a flag, but they also repel a lot of attempts by companies to get my personal data. I'm much more concerned about the latter and would gladly pay a bit more to have less tracking.
- jsnell 3y ago
  They're not going after Oracle because that's a stagnant company with no real market power. Apple is running the most brutal and successful display of monopoly power in the history of technology. I don't know why you think that EU isn't going after Microsoft. Apple is not being singled out here, a bunch of companies including MS are also in the scope for the DMA. The distinction is just that the other companies seem to intend to actually comply with the regulations, unlike Apple whose public posture is one of whining, and actions are those of malicious compliance.
bberenberg 3y ago
Who should pay for API development and maintenance? The thing that Apple (and most other platform vendors) have failed at isn’t the charging a fair price. It’s the delivering fair value. Given the amount they take the APIs, docs, tooling, support, etc should be much higher quality. They’re selling a product (access to people and APIs) and they’re doing an excellent job of giving developers a larger and larger pie to eat from, but they need to make the utensils better.
- mcmcmc 3y ago
  Uhhh how about the users who purchase the hardware and use the apps?
- ensignavenger 3y ago
  There users buy a phone- giving Apple money... with an OS as part of the deal. An OS is by definition an way to run apps, or an API to the phone hardware. If iPhones couldn't run apps, they wouldn't sell a bazillion of them every year.
  - bberenberg 3y ago
    That's literally not the deal. The deal is you get a phone with an OS, and an App Store on which you can get free or paid apps. Plus dynamic content via web browser etc. Developers know they have to pay a fee if they want to transact with these customers. The only people here trying to break the "deal" are consenting developers that decided they want to have their cake and eat it too. I built an entire company on top of a similar platform in the past. The take rate isn't the issue, it's the developer experience and associated operational costs, but since there isn't' a great narrative to rally the general public around to force Apple to provide better docs, this is the approach Epic and co have taken. PS. An operating system may be by definition a way to run apps, but it is not by definition something you can do anything you want with. For example, I can't take the Linux kernel make it closed source.
    - ensignavenger 3y ago
      The EU parliament is hardly a group of developers. There are plenty of iPhone owners that want the freedom to run whatever apps they want to on their phones, too. Further, I never said anything about what the "deal" was. I simply said that there are plenty of ways for Apple to make plenty of money without charging a per installation fee on every app that gets installed/updated on every iOS device.
rgbrenner 3y ago
Is that a good example? Facebook pulls in over $50B/year from Instagram, about $34/user. Ignoring the EU is richer than the average user, and using the user count you mentioned, that's $8.5B from the EU. So $135M is 1.5% of revenue. Should I be outraged one of the largest tech companies in the world needs to pay 1.5% of revenue to distribute their app? Are they even outraged about this? Lots of expenses exceed 1.5%. I wonder how much Facebook really cares.

bzzzt 3y ago

Why would I care as a consumer? And why act like it's a disgrace? Somebody has to pay for the 'core technology' Apple develops. I think Facebook can handle a fee of 1/1000 of their yearly revenue. If it's about licensing why doesn't the EU go after Microsoft or Oracle? Especially the second one has a tendency to get very creative with licensing requirements.

pmx 3y ago
I Paid for the core technology when I PAID THEM FOR THE FREAKING PHONE
- wdb 3y ago
  Clearly not
  - mcmcmc 3y ago
    Thanks for the valuable contribution
- hellisothers 3y ago
  What if you don’t though? I’m not saying it’s accurate but what if they were like “ok you can side-load but we didn’t price that into the $1000 phone, side-loading costs $4000”
  - pmx 3y ago
    Then Samsung's market share goes up?
jevoten 3y ago
I would think it would be obvious why consumers should care about a handful of corporations acting like feudal lords and controlling what smaller developers can do, technically or economically. To spell it out: because you are affected. In the best case scenario, only the Apple tax is passed on to you. In the worst case, the app you get will be discreetly censored at Apple's whims [1,2,3]. But of course you can rely on altruistic developers willing to forego half of the mobile market to get uncensored apps. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20903613/apple-hiding-taiwan-flag-emoji-hong-kong-macau-china https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20903613/apple-hiding-tai... [2] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-china-tv-protesters-hong-kong-tim-cook https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-ch... [3] https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-pulls-hong-kong-cop-tracking-map-app-after-china-uproar-11570681464 https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-pulls-hong-kong-cop-track...
- bzzzt 3y ago
  Of course there's ample evidence Apple is not on the brink of bankruptcy, but we've settled for current IP laws which permit companies to own stuff and charge consumers for it. If the price is too high consumers won't buy but given the current state of the app store it doesn't look like there's a lack of people and companies building apps despite the "Apple tax". I'm not entirely against opening up the app store but it remains to be seen if that would change things for the better. Apple may censor a flag, but they also repel a lot of attempts by companies to get my personal data. I'm much more concerned about the latter and would gladly pay a bit more to have less tracking.
jsnell 3y ago
They're not going after Oracle because that's a stagnant company with no real market power. Apple is running the most brutal and successful display of monopoly power in the history of technology. I don't know why you think that EU isn't going after Microsoft. Apple is not being singled out here, a bunch of companies including MS are also in the scope for the DMA. The distinction is just that the other companies seem to intend to actually comply with the regulations, unlike Apple whose public posture is one of whining, and actions are those of malicious compliance.

bberenberg 3y ago

Who should pay for API development and maintenance? The thing that Apple (and most other platform vendors) have failed at isn’t the charging a fair price. It’s the delivering fair value. Given the amount they take the APIs, docs, tooling, support, etc should be much higher quality. They’re selling a product (access to people and APIs) and they’re doing an excellent job of giving developers a larger and larger pie to eat from, but they need to make the utensils better.

mcmcmc 3y ago
Uhhh how about the users who purchase the hardware and use the apps?
ensignavenger 3y ago
There users buy a phone- giving Apple money... with an OS as part of the deal. An OS is by definition an way to run apps, or an API to the phone hardware. If iPhones couldn't run apps, they wouldn't sell a bazillion of them every year.
- bberenberg 3y ago
  That's literally not the deal. The deal is you get a phone with an OS, and an App Store on which you can get free or paid apps. Plus dynamic content via web browser etc. Developers know they have to pay a fee if they want to transact with these customers. The only people here trying to break the "deal" are consenting developers that decided they want to have their cake and eat it too. I built an entire company on top of a similar platform in the past. The take rate isn't the issue, it's the developer experience and associated operational costs, but since there isn't' a great narrative to rally the general public around to force Apple to provide better docs, this is the approach Epic and co have taken. PS. An operating system may be by definition a way to run apps, but it is not by definition something you can do anything you want with. For example, I can't take the Linux kernel make it closed source.
  - ensignavenger 3y ago
    The EU parliament is hardly a group of developers. There are plenty of iPhone owners that want the freedom to run whatever apps they want to on their phones, too. Further, I never said anything about what the "deal" was. I simply said that there are plenty of ways for Apple to make plenty of money without charging a per installation fee on every app that gets installed/updated on every iOS device.

rgbrenner 3y ago

Is that a good example? Facebook pulls in over $50B/year from Instagram, about $34/user. Ignoring the EU is richer than the average user, and using the user count you mentioned, that's $8.5B from the EU. So $135M is 1.5% of revenue. Should I be outraged one of the largest tech companies in the world needs to pay 1.5% of revenue to distribute their app? Are they even outraged about this? Lots of expenses exceed 1.5%. I wonder how much Facebook really cares.