4 ms·

As someone who started playing in 1980, I really don't get this OSR. I remember wanting to play a wizard to cast spells but then realizing that I spent 95% of m

As someone who started playing in 1980, I really don't get this OSR. I remember wanting to play a wizard to cast spells but then realizing that I spent 95% of my turns throwing darts because there were no cantrips. As I have gone through the progression of the DnD editions (and of course many other TTRPGS), I have never felt the urge to look back to those earlier weak versions. I have to wonder if people are being nostalgic for things that have nothing to do with the ruleset.

pierat 3y ago
Or, the old "Hold person" with a cleric, and then single dart to murder. There were definite downsides with the old material.
kemotep 3y ago
As someone who didn’t get into DnD until 3.5 was a thing, I like the simplicity of Old School Essentials. The Basic/Expert ruleset is far more about the imagination for me at least (my style of how I referee). Yes, magic-users at low levels have like no spells but at higher levels, they are capable of doing all kinds of crazy magic, in combination with the ability to research magic, create magical items and so on. That’s part of the balance of the game. I can understand why people don’t like that type of game, but that’s why there’s so many options of Tabletop Roleplaying Games. GURPS, Apocalypse World, Mork Borg, Ghost Dog, Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, etc all play differently and all have different mechanics and philosophies of how the game should be played.
itsoktocry 3y ago
>I remember wanting to play a wizard to cast spells but then realizing that I spent 95% of my turns throwing darts because there were no cantrips. I agree, but this is the "video game" mindset of which we've fallen into the trap. Why is the expectation that you can continuously cast spells like a video game? The world wasn't designed that way.
- TheCleric 3y ago
  Because then what’s the point of being a wizard, If you spend most of your time in weapon combat?
johnvak01 3y ago
Wizards were definitely weaker and more. Limited in those early levels In early dnd. In retrospect with the way "modern" dnd has removed those limitations it's definitely skewed the internal. Class balance now if youre not a spellcatser you're objectively worse at almost everything. See the whole. Linear fighter and quadratic wizard debate. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQu... The bigger change over the years (which the osr has been trying to go back to) has been to adventure design, as modern dnd has shifted away from location based play to linear stories. https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/44578/roleplaying-games/whither-the-dungeon-the-decline-and-fall-of-dd-adventures https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/44578/roleplaying-games... In addition there has been a marked change in the cultural expectations of players. https://retiredadventurer.blogspot.com/2021/04/six-cultures-of-play.html?m=1 https://retiredadventurer.blogspot.com/2021/04/six-cultures-... For more on the osr in recommend reading the pribcipia apocrypha https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/p/principia-apocrypha.html?m=1 https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/p/principia-apocrypha.html?...
jasomill 3y ago
Low-level casters sucked, with or without cantrips (which didn't do anything useful in combat when originally introduced, IIRC, in Unearthed Arcana). But at least they eventually leveled up. Or…not, if they were non-human and hit their race-specific, often single-digit level cap. Yeah, come to think of it, old school AD&D rules did leave plenty of room for improvement. Demihuman level caps were even more annoying in the old school AD&D computer games that enforced them, as it's hard to role play a party of permanently underleveled characters in a high-level area of a brutal, combat-focused, non-level scaled CRPG as anything other than a pile of corpses.
- hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
  I think it's up to the DM to provide more scenarios for the mages to be more useful.

pierat 3y ago

Or, the old "Hold person" with a cleric, and then single dart to murder. There were definite downsides with the old material.

kemotep 3y ago

As someone who didn’t get into DnD until 3.5 was a thing, I like the simplicity of Old School Essentials. The Basic/Expert ruleset is far more about the imagination for me at least (my style of how I referee). Yes, magic-users at low levels have like no spells but at higher levels, they are capable of doing all kinds of crazy magic, in combination with the ability to research magic, create magical items and so on. That’s part of the balance of the game. I can understand why people don’t like that type of game, but that’s why there’s so many options of Tabletop Roleplaying Games. GURPS, Apocalypse World, Mork Borg, Ghost Dog, Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, etc all play differently and all have different mechanics and philosophies of how the game should be played.

itsoktocry 3y ago

>I remember wanting to play a wizard to cast spells but then realizing that I spent 95% of my turns throwing darts because there were no cantrips. I agree, but this is the "video game" mindset of which we've fallen into the trap. Why is the expectation that you can continuously cast spells like a video game? The world wasn't designed that way.

TheCleric 3y ago
Because then what’s the point of being a wizard, If you spend most of your time in weapon combat?

johnvak01 3y ago

Wizards were definitely weaker and more. Limited in those early levels In early dnd. In retrospect with the way "modern" dnd has removed those limitations it's definitely skewed the internal. Class balance now if youre not a spellcatser you're objectively worse at almost everything. See the whole. Linear fighter and quadratic wizard debate. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQu... The bigger change over the years (which the osr has been trying to go back to) has been to adventure design, as modern dnd has shifted away from location based play to linear stories. https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/44578/roleplaying-games/whither-the-dungeon-the-decline-and-fall-of-dd-adventures https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/44578/roleplaying-games... In addition there has been a marked change in the cultural expectations of players. https://retiredadventurer.blogspot.com/2021/04/six-cultures-of-play.html?m=1 https://retiredadventurer.blogspot.com/2021/04/six-cultures-... For more on the osr in recommend reading the pribcipia apocrypha https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/p/principia-apocrypha.html?m=1 https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/p/principia-apocrypha.html?...

jasomill 3y ago

Low-level casters sucked, with or without cantrips (which didn't do anything useful in combat when originally introduced, IIRC, in Unearthed Arcana). But at least they eventually leveled up. Or…not, if they were non-human and hit their race-specific, often single-digit level cap. Yeah, come to think of it, old school AD&D rules did leave plenty of room for improvement. Demihuman level caps were even more annoying in the old school AD&D computer games that enforced them, as it's hard to role play a party of permanently underleveled characters in a high-level area of a brutal, combat-focused, non-level scaled CRPG as anything other than a pile of corpses.

hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
I think it's up to the DM to provide more scenarios for the mages to be more useful.