5 ms·

I've actually seen one of the effects of this among my single friends who have observed that conservatives now put "non-political" on their dating profiles beca

by Spivak 3y ago

I've actually seen one of the effects of this among my single friends who have observed that conservatives now put "non-political" on their dating profiles because if they put conservative they get no matches. But since that's obvious now non-political is "okay, so conservative." The best part about this is that one of my single friends is conservative herself and won't even match with conservative men. I think it's great honestly. Women might not hold a lot of political power directly but mate selection is a powerful motivator for change.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> because if they put conservative they get no matches Why is political affiliation on a dating app? > one of my single friends is conservative herself and won't even match with conservative men Have you asked her why? To me, someone proudly putting a conservative political affiliation on a dating profile raises safety issues not related to their political views, but to their choice to put them there as a marker of their identity. > Women might not hold a lot of political power directly Wat.
- MattGaiser 3y ago
  > Why is political affiliation on a dating app? For the majority, different political views are a dealbreaker in the USA. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-marriage-rate-different-political-views/674358/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-marriag...
- Spivak 3y ago
  IDK, it's just one of the basic things that on your profile. It includes stuff like height, age, if you smoke, if you drink, your religious affiliation, your profession. And since it's such a strong signal, folks will unmatch on that alone, it seems like a good question to determine compatibility. > Have you asked her why? Oh absolutely, she talks at length about it. She started out not really caring about political affiliation because she's a conservative with a friend group of mostly liberals and can get along with anyone but then all the conservative men instant dq'd themselves either in the chat or on the first date by demonstrating a quote "frightening lack of respect for women." > Wat. I know! It's messed up. We really should do something about it. I mean look at this [1] in 2023 women just got to the 30% mark in legislative positions. https://pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/the-data-on-women-leaders/ https://pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/the-data-on...
surgical_fire 3y ago
> mate selection is a powerful motivator for change. As someone smarter than me probably said - "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Or, in layman's terms, this is pure, unfiltered bullshit. In truth, politics is not front and center of people's existence.
- Spivak 3y ago
  In the US it's absolutely a dealbreaker. From MattGaiser [1] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-marriage-rate-different-political-views/674358/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-marriag...
- quesera 3y ago
  > In truth, politics is not front and center of people's existence. In a world where everything is politicized, this cannot be correct. It's just described differently.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    We're not in a world where everything is politicized. We're in a world where a bunch of very loud people politicize everything. That's not the same. In particular, a large number of people wish the "politicize everything" people would just shut up and go away and stop shoving their insanity at the rest of us.
    - quesera 3y ago
      I wish for many things. So far, this has not had a material effect on reality. But I will keep trying. Please give me one example of a thing that is not politicized. And that some not-insubstantial percent of the population holds an opinion or belief that is truly their own vs something tribal and politicized. I struggled to come up with an example before I made my previous post. Maybe you can do better.
      - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
xtracto 3y ago
It just occurred to me that it may have something to do with the "crystal generation" thing: young people today are less tolerant and unwilling to compromise. My wife is quite "conservative " with right leaning values (for mexican) while I myself am pretty socialist/left leaning. But we leaned to live and enjoy our differences and opinions.
- Spivak 3y ago
  So that's the thing, in the US "right leaning" and "actually votes Republican and actively supports the Republican Party" are night and day differences. Because moderate conservatives (or libertarian-conservatives) who don't care for Republican's weird crusades against abortion, trans people, blue lives matter, anti-vaxx bullshit, climate change denial and whatever the next not-actually-realted-to-conservatism thing is and just want regular-ass conservative politics a la Romney, McCain, DeWine are totally alienated. Among my friends and coworkers those right leaning people have just started calling themselves liberal but not progressive and voting Democrat because that's now actually closer to their views than Republicans and they don't want to be associated with MAGA.
- trealira 3y ago
  No offense, but could it be that you aren't as extreme or different from each other as you think? It's not like there weren't plenty of extremist young men willing to die and kill for socialist or fascist ideology during World War 2 or the Spanish Civil War; or, going back further, for the various reactionary and radical ideologies during the French Revolution. Perhaps your generation was an outlier in being less extreme.
chrisdhoover 3y ago
Women have always held a particular power. Try reading Lysistrata
- telesilla 3y ago
  That's a fun story but anytime people manipulate others using sex, it's making explicit that there are power imbalances.
  - tiahura 3y ago
    You’re confusing unbalanced with unequal.
telesilla 3y ago
These graphs terrify me because while women may have a choice for partner selection at this time we know it's a slippery slopr towards a highly conservative society where women have almost every choice removed. We have this today in the removal of abortion rights, and the extreme behavior is exhibited in niche communities such as Orthodox Judaism, rural Amish-type communities where women are not educated, and, increasingly, evangelic communities in the developed world, most visible in South Korea So, to see men heading to the conservative side of the dance floor is a warning to those of us who thought that the fight for liberty is a one-, time event.
- Spivak 3y ago
  Preach. This kind of shift is one of my worries too but. But since this isn't a "movement" in any real sense and it's just individual women choosing for themselves the tide is gonna be what it's gonna be and we have to deal with that fallout.
  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
    No movement? You don't seem to study SK gender relations do you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4B_(movement) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4B_(movement) https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-ko...
Der_Einzige 3y ago
Many women will profess outwardly and even on their tinder profiles (increasingly the majority way people date) a strong preference for a partner who is politically egalitarian yet in their actual mate selection they will act like eugenicist fascists. "6 feet, 6 inches, 6 figures". It should be no one's surprise when the average height and phallic size of men continues to grow over time, especially throughout the western world, given how strong that the selection signals are from women. This is scary for those with a progressive world view, since conservatives try to monopolize masculinity. "Working out" as a man, being a "gym bro" etc are things that are lightly conservatively coded. Effeminate egalitarian nerds in American media are depicted constantly as being physically dominated by authoritarian and tyrannical bullies. Women will increasingly find conservative politics enticing by it's transgressive nature despite outwardly professing preferences against it. This is why black men in clubs tend to do well with white women despite dating app data showing systemic dating discrimination against black men.
- reverius42 3y ago
  > conservative politics enticing by it's transgressive nature Yup, nothing could be more transgressive than (checks notes) having the political views of your great grandparents’ generation.
  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
    In a world where your great grandparent has double the testosterone rates, more than double the sperm counts, and significantly better fertility rates than their young peers, I stand by what I said unironically. Chances are also good that their great grandparents were getting laid far more often too! Also, there's been a lot written even in other liberal communities admitting that modern conservatism has essentially replaced the old "counterculture" that was previously held by hippies. This is because of a mainstreamification of "being woke" and of related ideology. Today, an honest to god "live in the forest off the grid type" who tries to live a conservative rugged man ideal is peak counterculture.
iteratethis 3y ago
You'll be disappointed by that power. Apparently, millions of young men have simply checked out. They're not in school and missing from the work force. Another statistic I came across: 45% of young men (18-24) have never approached a girl in their life. They're isolating themselves. They're not bettering themselves, or competing. They're out.
- Spivak 3y ago
  I mean this sincerely, what's the alternative? This isn't a situation where women are organizing or just being spiteful and passing up perfectly good datable men to play political games, these men are genuinely considered undatable. Do we draw straws?
  - reverius42 3y ago
    Have these men considered self improvement (including having less abhorrent views according to the other gender) in order to become datable? Everyone makes their choices. If 45% of men are choosing to drop out of ever having a relationship without even trying, maybe that’s on them.
    - iteratethis 3y ago
      We have to be accurate about the statistic. It said that 45% had never approached a girl/woman. Not that 45% is permanently and actively avoiding having a relationship by choice. For sure they should become more active, but there may be societal trends contributing to the statistic: increased isolation, limited shared spaces, dating largely moving to apps, poor or no role models, fear of rejection, etc.
  - iteratethis 3y ago
    I don't have an alternative, I was just sharing an observation. It was implied that this group of men is "forced" to better themselves or else be locked out of dating and family formation. A growing amount of men go for the "or else" part. So it doesn't look like a powerful motivator for change.
incomingpain 3y ago
Social sciences, multiple dating sites have confirmed a major change in the social fabric. Lets go with south korea as they are the worst off: https://amj.kma.re.kr/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1597&context=journal https://amj.kma.re.kr/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1597&conte... The implication that you arent getting dates because of politics isn't true at all. But I'm not blaming dating sites at all, that's not the cause of the problem. >I think it's great honestly. Women might not hold a lot of political power directly but mate selection is a powerful motivator for change. Women hold as much political power as men, and men are becoming more conservative. The 'change' is toward more conservative. That 'powerful motivator' is the opposite of your prediction. What is happening in reality? https://ifstudies.org/blog/where-have-all-the-good-men-gone https://ifstudies.org/blog/where-have-all-the-good-men-gone https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/05/the-rise-of-older-mothers/560555/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/05/the-rise-... But this has a consequence. Your supports from family are less. Your ability to be a mother at 30+ vs 20+ is a huge difference. Men don't have the same drive as women. The proverbial ticking clock. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9942082/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9942082/ Women are historical record highs level of depressed. Social science calls it the 'female happiness paradox' But it's not a paradox at all. It's kind of outrageous they label it a paradox. From the study: >Across a number of studies, there is increasing evidence that men’s wellbeing has been improving relative to women’s whether that is measured using negative or positive affect variables and the gap has increased during the COVID-19 pandemic and associated lockdowns. Men are doing BETTER. That 'powerful motivator' is the opposite of what you think.

by Spivak 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> because if they put conservative they get no matches Why is political affiliation on a dating app? > one of my single friends is conservative herself and won't even match with conservative men Have you asked her why? To me, someone proudly putting a conservative political affiliation on a dating profile raises safety issues not related to their political views, but to their choice to put them there as a marker of their identity. > Women might not hold a lot of political power directly Wat.

MattGaiser 3y ago
> Why is political affiliation on a dating app? For the majority, different political views are a dealbreaker in the USA. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-marriage-rate-different-political-views/674358/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-marriag...
Spivak 3y ago
IDK, it's just one of the basic things that on your profile. It includes stuff like height, age, if you smoke, if you drink, your religious affiliation, your profession. And since it's such a strong signal, folks will unmatch on that alone, it seems like a good question to determine compatibility. > Have you asked her why? Oh absolutely, she talks at length about it. She started out not really caring about political affiliation because she's a conservative with a friend group of mostly liberals and can get along with anyone but then all the conservative men instant dq'd themselves either in the chat or on the first date by demonstrating a quote "frightening lack of respect for women." > Wat. I know! It's messed up. We really should do something about it. I mean look at this [1] in 2023 women just got to the 30% mark in legislative positions. https://pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/the-data-on-women-leaders/ https://pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/the-data-on...

surgical_fire 3y ago

> mate selection is a powerful motivator for change. As someone smarter than me probably said - "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Or, in layman's terms, this is pure, unfiltered bullshit. In truth, politics is not front and center of people's existence.

Spivak 3y ago
In the US it's absolutely a dealbreaker. From MattGaiser [1] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-marriage-rate-different-political-views/674358/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-marriag...
quesera 3y ago
> In truth, politics is not front and center of people's existence. In a world where everything is politicized, this cannot be correct. It's just described differently.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  We're not in a world where everything is politicized. We're in a world where a bunch of very loud people politicize everything. That's not the same. In particular, a large number of people wish the "politicize everything" people would just shut up and go away and stop shoving their insanity at the rest of us.
  - quesera 3y ago
    I wish for many things. So far, this has not had a material effect on reality. But I will keep trying. Please give me one example of a thing that is not politicized. And that some not-insubstantial percent of the population holds an opinion or belief that is truly their own vs something tribal and politicized. I struggled to come up with an example before I made my previous post. Maybe you can do better.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago

xtracto 3y ago

It just occurred to me that it may have something to do with the "crystal generation" thing: young people today are less tolerant and unwilling to compromise. My wife is quite "conservative " with right leaning values (for mexican) while I myself am pretty socialist/left leaning. But we leaned to live and enjoy our differences and opinions.

Spivak 3y ago
So that's the thing, in the US "right leaning" and "actually votes Republican and actively supports the Republican Party" are night and day differences. Because moderate conservatives (or libertarian-conservatives) who don't care for Republican's weird crusades against abortion, trans people, blue lives matter, anti-vaxx bullshit, climate change denial and whatever the next not-actually-realted-to-conservatism thing is and just want regular-ass conservative politics a la Romney, McCain, DeWine are totally alienated. Among my friends and coworkers those right leaning people have just started calling themselves liberal but not progressive and voting Democrat because that's now actually closer to their views than Republicans and they don't want to be associated with MAGA.
trealira 3y ago
No offense, but could it be that you aren't as extreme or different from each other as you think? It's not like there weren't plenty of extremist young men willing to die and kill for socialist or fascist ideology during World War 2 or the Spanish Civil War; or, going back further, for the various reactionary and radical ideologies during the French Revolution. Perhaps your generation was an outlier in being less extreme.

chrisdhoover 3y ago

Women have always held a particular power. Try reading Lysistrata

telesilla 3y ago
That's a fun story but anytime people manipulate others using sex, it's making explicit that there are power imbalances.
- tiahura 3y ago
  You’re confusing unbalanced with unequal.

telesilla 3y ago

These graphs terrify me because while women may have a choice for partner selection at this time we know it's a slippery slopr towards a highly conservative society where women have almost every choice removed. We have this today in the removal of abortion rights, and the extreme behavior is exhibited in niche communities such as Orthodox Judaism, rural Amish-type communities where women are not educated, and, increasingly, evangelic communities in the developed world, most visible in South Korea So, to see men heading to the conservative side of the dance floor is a warning to those of us who thought that the fight for liberty is a one-, time event.

Spivak 3y ago
Preach. This kind of shift is one of my worries too but. But since this isn't a "movement" in any real sense and it's just individual women choosing for themselves the tide is gonna be what it's gonna be and we have to deal with that fallout.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  No movement? You don't seem to study SK gender relations do you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4B_(movement) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4B_(movement) https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-ko...

Der_Einzige 3y ago

Many women will profess outwardly and even on their tinder profiles (increasingly the majority way people date) a strong preference for a partner who is politically egalitarian yet in their actual mate selection they will act like eugenicist fascists. "6 feet, 6 inches, 6 figures". It should be no one's surprise when the average height and phallic size of men continues to grow over time, especially throughout the western world, given how strong that the selection signals are from women. This is scary for those with a progressive world view, since conservatives try to monopolize masculinity. "Working out" as a man, being a "gym bro" etc are things that are lightly conservatively coded. Effeminate egalitarian nerds in American media are depicted constantly as being physically dominated by authoritarian and tyrannical bullies. Women will increasingly find conservative politics enticing by it's transgressive nature despite outwardly professing preferences against it. This is why black men in clubs tend to do well with white women despite dating app data showing systemic dating discrimination against black men.

reverius42 3y ago
> conservative politics enticing by it's transgressive nature Yup, nothing could be more transgressive than (checks notes) having the political views of your great grandparents’ generation.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  In a world where your great grandparent has double the testosterone rates, more than double the sperm counts, and significantly better fertility rates than their young peers, I stand by what I said unironically. Chances are also good that their great grandparents were getting laid far more often too! Also, there's been a lot written even in other liberal communities admitting that modern conservatism has essentially replaced the old "counterculture" that was previously held by hippies. This is because of a mainstreamification of "being woke" and of related ideology. Today, an honest to god "live in the forest off the grid type" who tries to live a conservative rugged man ideal is peak counterculture.

iteratethis 3y ago

You'll be disappointed by that power. Apparently, millions of young men have simply checked out. They're not in school and missing from the work force. Another statistic I came across: 45% of young men (18-24) have never approached a girl in their life. They're isolating themselves. They're not bettering themselves, or competing. They're out.

Spivak 3y ago
I mean this sincerely, what's the alternative? This isn't a situation where women are organizing or just being spiteful and passing up perfectly good datable men to play political games, these men are genuinely considered undatable. Do we draw straws?
- reverius42 3y ago
  Have these men considered self improvement (including having less abhorrent views according to the other gender) in order to become datable? Everyone makes their choices. If 45% of men are choosing to drop out of ever having a relationship without even trying, maybe that’s on them.
  - iteratethis 3y ago
    We have to be accurate about the statistic. It said that 45% had never approached a girl/woman. Not that 45% is permanently and actively avoiding having a relationship by choice. For sure they should become more active, but there may be societal trends contributing to the statistic: increased isolation, limited shared spaces, dating largely moving to apps, poor or no role models, fear of rejection, etc.
- iteratethis 3y ago
  I don't have an alternative, I was just sharing an observation. It was implied that this group of men is "forced" to better themselves or else be locked out of dating and family formation. A growing amount of men go for the "or else" part. So it doesn't look like a powerful motivator for change.

incomingpain 3y ago

Social sciences, multiple dating sites have confirmed a major change in the social fabric. Lets go with south korea as they are the worst off: https://amj.kma.re.kr/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1597&context=journal https://amj.kma.re.kr/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1597&conte... The implication that you arent getting dates because of politics isn't true at all. But I'm not blaming dating sites at all, that's not the cause of the problem. >I think it's great honestly. Women might not hold a lot of political power directly but mate selection is a powerful motivator for change. Women hold as much political power as men, and men are becoming more conservative. The 'change' is toward more conservative. That 'powerful motivator' is the opposite of your prediction. What is happening in reality? https://ifstudies.org/blog/where-have-all-the-good-men-gone https://ifstudies.org/blog/where-have-all-the-good-men-gone https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/05/the-rise-of-older-mothers/560555/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/05/the-rise-... But this has a consequence. Your supports from family are less. Your ability to be a mother at 30+ vs 20+ is a huge difference. Men don't have the same drive as women. The proverbial ticking clock. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9942082/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9942082/ Women are historical record highs level of depressed. Social science calls it the 'female happiness paradox' But it's not a paradox at all. It's kind of outrageous they label it a paradox. From the study: >Across a number of studies, there is increasing evidence that men’s wellbeing has been improving relative to women’s whether that is measured using negative or positive affect variables and the gap has increased during the COVID-19 pandemic and associated lockdowns. Men are doing BETTER. That 'powerful motivator' is the opposite of what you think.