4 ms·

This really isn't that surprising - as has been discussed many times here - young men in particular are being badly affected by modern cultural mores especially

This really isn't that surprising - as has been discussed many times here - young men in particular are being badly affected by modern cultural mores especially in the relationship games dominated by digital services. Add into that the hyper-masculine voices that often correctly identify these issues while prescribing sometime toxic solutions in a public space that otherwise denies their suffering it's inevitable that ideological divides will develop. The problems will continue as mainstream media grudgingly notes the consequences while sticking it's head in the sand as to the causes as it has done for years.

idkdotcom 3y ago
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ch4s3 3y ago
The data for the US shows young men in the US staying relatively around the center after a brief left shift in '08, but young women have skewed far to the left. So the gap shouldn't have much to do with the material conditions of men, in the US at least.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  Or, that same data could be use to show that women have stayed relatively around the center and men of skewed far to the right. After all, "the center" is not an absolute objectively defined concept.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    No, but given two points in time, one can determine which are the center, left, and right views at each point, and see how much each group moved from those and at what direction. That is, the center/left/right doesn't have to be an "absolute objectively defined concept". That "what is center" can change over time is irrelevant. To see if people moved to the left or right compared to, say, the 90s, you just need to know what was the center baseline in the 90s. The comparison is relative.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      The left is defined as moving. That's what "progressive" means. For 100 years there was a clear pattern where the center adopted the views of the left about 20 years after the left did, and the right about 20 years after the center. This pattern no longer holds.
      - zozbot234 3y ago
        It never held all that much. The 'progressive' movement used to support eugenics as far late as the 1960s in some places. And economic freedom used to be seen as a conservative value exclusively prior to the 1980s and 1990s, but today it has contributed to lifting billions of people out of poverty, and many on the "neo-liberal" left support it. More recently, the left is also slowly moving towards supporting a preference for skilled over unskilled immigration to protect vulnerable and marginalized citizens' jobs and reduce concerns over social frictions, something that used to only be a talking point for conservatives.
        bryanlarsen 3y ago
        Economic freedom has always been a key Liberal value. Protecting jobs has always been a key left value.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        >The left is defined as moving. That's what "progressive" means It's a little more complicated than that. Progressive and left can coincide in some cases, but they're not the same thing. Left ideas were often deemed "regressive", both in the economic and social domains. In fact, according to Marx himself, capitalism (the essense of the "right" in European terms) is a revolutionary movement itself, which breaks down all established traditional order and social conventions. And inversely, leftish causes, were often considered as anti-progress: the protection of workers from automation, environmental issues ("tree-huggers"), protesting against GMOs or nuclear power, celebrating native cultures, and of course protesting modernity and consumer society (a massive theme in the 60s and 70s leftist movements). And of course in the 19th century, a huge number of leftist intellectuals were Romantics or close - against the rise of industry and alienation. The reality is that the "progressivist" element, an inherently capitalistic dynamic (historically only partially shared with some parts of the left), has increasingly eaten up the folksy elements of the left, to the point that the modern left is mostly an upper middle class movement.
  - tivert 3y ago
    >> The data for the US shows young men in the US staying relatively around the center after a brief left shift in '08, but young women have skewed far to the left. So the gap shouldn't have much to do with the material conditions of men, in the US at least. > Or, that same data could be use to show that women have stayed relatively around the center and men of skewed far to the right. After all, "the center" is not an absolute objectively defined concept. I would assume any study of that data worth being called as such would have put all its measurements on some standard scale to determine who actually moved. "The center" may not be an "objectively" defined concept, but "men stayed the same" and "women moved" can be quantified objectively.
  - ch4s3 3y ago
    The studies are of partisan lean over a relatively small number of years. The parties aren't that different than they were in 2008, but in the US young women are far more likely to vote for democratic candidates and to be more strident in that choice than at any point in time since data has been collected. Young men are now slightly less likely to vote for the democratic party than 15 years ago.
- flir 3y ago
  Not sure that follows. Is there an underlying assumption that better material conditions == move to the right, all else being equal? (Not criticising, trying to tease out your meaning). BTW, in the conversation below I think y'all are talking about the Overton Window without actually mentioning it.
  - ch4s3 3y ago
    I’m not talking about the Overton Window. I mean specifically in the US based on survey data, young men vote about like they did 15 years ago, and women on average are much more likely to vote for the left leaning party. That’s all I mean.
tiahura 3y ago
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BipolarCapybara 3y ago
Skill issue

idkdotcom 3y ago

[dead]

ch4s3 3y ago

The data for the US shows young men in the US staying relatively around the center after a brief left shift in '08, but young women have skewed far to the left. So the gap shouldn't have much to do with the material conditions of men, in the US at least.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
Or, that same data could be use to show that women have stayed relatively around the center and men of skewed far to the right. After all, "the center" is not an absolute objectively defined concept.
- coldtea 3y ago
  No, but given two points in time, one can determine which are the center, left, and right views at each point, and see how much each group moved from those and at what direction. That is, the center/left/right doesn't have to be an "absolute objectively defined concept". That "what is center" can change over time is irrelevant. To see if people moved to the left or right compared to, say, the 90s, you just need to know what was the center baseline in the 90s. The comparison is relative.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    The left is defined as moving. That's what "progressive" means. For 100 years there was a clear pattern where the center adopted the views of the left about 20 years after the left did, and the right about 20 years after the center. This pattern no longer holds.
    - zozbot234 3y ago
      It never held all that much. The 'progressive' movement used to support eugenics as far late as the 1960s in some places. And economic freedom used to be seen as a conservative value exclusively prior to the 1980s and 1990s, but today it has contributed to lifting billions of people out of poverty, and many on the "neo-liberal" left support it. More recently, the left is also slowly moving towards supporting a preference for skilled over unskilled immigration to protect vulnerable and marginalized citizens' jobs and reduce concerns over social frictions, something that used to only be a talking point for conservatives.
      - bryanlarsen 3y ago
        Economic freedom has always been a key Liberal value. Protecting jobs has always been a key left value.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      >The left is defined as moving. That's what "progressive" means It's a little more complicated than that. Progressive and left can coincide in some cases, but they're not the same thing. Left ideas were often deemed "regressive", both in the economic and social domains. In fact, according to Marx himself, capitalism (the essense of the "right" in European terms) is a revolutionary movement itself, which breaks down all established traditional order and social conventions. And inversely, leftish causes, were often considered as anti-progress: the protection of workers from automation, environmental issues ("tree-huggers"), protesting against GMOs or nuclear power, celebrating native cultures, and of course protesting modernity and consumer society (a massive theme in the 60s and 70s leftist movements). And of course in the 19th century, a huge number of leftist intellectuals were Romantics or close - against the rise of industry and alienation. The reality is that the "progressivist" element, an inherently capitalistic dynamic (historically only partially shared with some parts of the left), has increasingly eaten up the folksy elements of the left, to the point that the modern left is mostly an upper middle class movement.
- tivert 3y ago
  >> The data for the US shows young men in the US staying relatively around the center after a brief left shift in '08, but young women have skewed far to the left. So the gap shouldn't have much to do with the material conditions of men, in the US at least. > Or, that same data could be use to show that women have stayed relatively around the center and men of skewed far to the right. After all, "the center" is not an absolute objectively defined concept. I would assume any study of that data worth being called as such would have put all its measurements on some standard scale to determine who actually moved. "The center" may not be an "objectively" defined concept, but "men stayed the same" and "women moved" can be quantified objectively.
- ch4s3 3y ago
  The studies are of partisan lean over a relatively small number of years. The parties aren't that different than they were in 2008, but in the US young women are far more likely to vote for democratic candidates and to be more strident in that choice than at any point in time since data has been collected. Young men are now slightly less likely to vote for the democratic party than 15 years ago.
flir 3y ago
Not sure that follows. Is there an underlying assumption that better material conditions == move to the right, all else being equal? (Not criticising, trying to tease out your meaning). BTW, in the conversation below I think y'all are talking about the Overton Window without actually mentioning it.
- ch4s3 3y ago
  I’m not talking about the Overton Window. I mean specifically in the US based on survey data, young men vote about like they did 15 years ago, and women on average are much more likely to vote for the left leaning party. That’s all I mean.

tiahura 3y ago

[dead]

BipolarCapybara 3y ago

Skill issue