5 ms·

Request Backport to iOS 15. Apply generally the same rules for computer manufacturers. Pre-Installing Windows and forcing them to use it? No. Lenovo allows m

Request Backport to iOS 15. Apply generally the same rules for computer manufacturers. Pre-Installing Windows and forcing them to use it? No. Lenovo allows me to order a system without any operating-system or Linux. And I can spend the saved money to GNOME or other people in need. That should be standard, default shall be operating-system. And for Google. Visiting Google or YouTube and they try lure me to install Chrome. Android must ask if I want a better browser. Like Safari or Firefox. I appreciate a port of WebKitGtk (needs more developers). Actually I would appreciate if the EU generally stops thinking in “free markets” and thinks instead of “free citizens”. If I own something it is mine.

meta-level 3y ago
As a Thinkpad fan (from Germany, maybe this makes a difference) I have to say that Lenovo usually only let's you buy Laptops without Windows for very crappy machines or if you're a student via Lenovo campus program.
- ho_schi 3y ago
  The X13 Gen3 or Gen 4 (both AMD or Intel) are high-end devices. Both allow to ship without operating-system. // edit Double checked that. You can also select the OS for the T14s or T14-Intel. The decision of Lenovo for options are sometimes weird. It looks like that ThinkPads preferred for professional usage likely ship without operating-system. Maybe you look for already built-devices only? Look for the options upon CTOs devices - which makes sense - their built upon request. Sometimes you can also select Fedora or Ubuntu but I think the majority of Linux user prefer to setup the system itself.
RamblingCTO 3y ago
But you bought it and knew what you would get upfront? You're free to not buy it. I never understood this entitlement. "I want device XYZ to behave like I want." Why buy apple in the first place? There are enough devices that cater to this very preference. The only argument the EU can make is monopolies. And mac is not even near being a monopoly. Not even the i devices are.
- ragazzina 3y ago
  You understand this is true for Apple too, right? They are free to leave the EU market if they don't like the EU rules.
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    Absolutely.
- ho_schi 3y ago
  Your argument is that the people know that they are only two harmful smartphone systems from Google and Apple. And therefore it is the people’s fault to choose one? > Choose between death or ban! < Ban? > Okay. Death through ban. People have the right to modify, repair or maintain their property - within boundaries of law (e.g. you can use tires of your choice on your bicycle - but you cannot remove the belts in a car and drive on public roads). In the past we enforced regularly features for devices. Interoperability should be a general requirement! Exceptions apply only if the manufacturer is able to explain why it isn’t possible or a new standard is required. Back to normal. PS: Your argument is neglecting lacking knowledge by 90% of customers and the mass-effect by this group. People do not understand software.
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    > People have the right to modify, repair or maintain their property In all honesty, I think this just isn't true with networked software anymore and I don't think we can solve this properly. It's not a simple lawnmower but exists in a bigger context. As Apple/Google etc. need to spend more work and money afterwards, it's not as simple as "it's muh property" but get's a lot more complex. > Your argument is neglecting lacking knowledge by 90% of customers and the mass-effect by this group. That was an argument in 2006, I don't think it is 18 years later. And in all honesty, I don't believe people care. Otherwise they wouldn't buy Alexa or stupid adware in the form of TVs. They know, they just don't care.

meta-level 3y ago

As a Thinkpad fan (from Germany, maybe this makes a difference) I have to say that Lenovo usually only let's you buy Laptops without Windows for very crappy machines or if you're a student via Lenovo campus program.

ho_schi 3y ago
The X13 Gen3 or Gen 4 (both AMD or Intel) are high-end devices. Both allow to ship without operating-system. // edit Double checked that. You can also select the OS for the T14s or T14-Intel. The decision of Lenovo for options are sometimes weird. It looks like that ThinkPads preferred for professional usage likely ship without operating-system. Maybe you look for already built-devices only? Look for the options upon CTOs devices - which makes sense - their built upon request. Sometimes you can also select Fedora or Ubuntu but I think the majority of Linux user prefer to setup the system itself.

RamblingCTO 3y ago

But you bought it and knew what you would get upfront? You're free to not buy it. I never understood this entitlement. "I want device XYZ to behave like I want." Why buy apple in the first place? There are enough devices that cater to this very preference. The only argument the EU can make is monopolies. And mac is not even near being a monopoly. Not even the i devices are.

ragazzina 3y ago
You understand this is true for Apple too, right? They are free to leave the EU market if they don't like the EU rules.
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  Absolutely.
ho_schi 3y ago
Your argument is that the people know that they are only two harmful smartphone systems from Google and Apple. And therefore it is the people’s fault to choose one? > Choose between death or ban! < Ban? > Okay. Death through ban. People have the right to modify, repair or maintain their property - within boundaries of law (e.g. you can use tires of your choice on your bicycle - but you cannot remove the belts in a car and drive on public roads). In the past we enforced regularly features for devices. Interoperability should be a general requirement! Exceptions apply only if the manufacturer is able to explain why it isn’t possible or a new standard is required. Back to normal. PS: Your argument is neglecting lacking knowledge by 90% of customers and the mass-effect by this group. People do not understand software.
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  > People have the right to modify, repair or maintain their property In all honesty, I think this just isn't true with networked software anymore and I don't think we can solve this properly. It's not a simple lawnmower but exists in a bigger context. As Apple/Google etc. need to spend more work and money afterwards, it's not as simple as "it's muh property" but get's a lot more complex. > Your argument is neglecting lacking knowledge by 90% of customers and the mass-effect by this group. That was an argument in 2006, I don't think it is 18 years later. And in all honesty, I don't believe people care. Otherwise they wouldn't buy Alexa or stupid adware in the form of TVs. They know, they just don't care.