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I thought you were exaggerating but skimming, it is chilling how that 2nd link just says the quiet part loud: > The powerful effect of incentive plans (indepen

I thought you were exaggerating but skimming, it is chilling how that 2nd link just says the quiet part loud: > The powerful effect of incentive plans (independent of quotas) was documented in an older study of Army guidance counselors.22 A key responsibility of guidance counselors is to channel applicants into the Army’s priority occupations. During the period under study, guidance counselors were under an incentive plan that offered counselors additional points for selling a high-priority occupation. The study found that simply offering five more incentive plan points for selling a particular occupation was more than twice as effective as offering an enlistment bonus to a recruit. That is, it was more effective to give the seller (the guidance counselor) an incentive to “sell” the occupation than it was to give the buyer (the recruit) an incentive to “buy” the occupation. Nice to know that government funded studies show tricking people is more effective than convincing or bargaining with them in good faith

austin-cheney 3y ago
I fail to see where anybody is being tricked in your quote. Research has indicated that Americans are progressively becoming more risk adverse, obese, and more injury prone over time. If only 23% of Americans qualify for military service now that number will become much smaller in the future. The potential rarity of viable recruits could become a new unexpected driver of personal wealth as military service becomes a new form wealthy exceptionalism available only to those gifted few.
- photonthug 3y ago
  Huh? My read is, this basically says there's no reason to give a recruit bonuses for priority (like say, undesirable and dangerous front line) work. It's more effective incentivizing the recruiter (like maybe he could just forget to mention other work is even available). There is no way this incentive structure leads to honesty for recruiter or upward mobility for the recruit
  - eru 3y ago
    > My read is, this basically says there's no reason to give a recruit bonuses for priority (like say, undesirable and dangerous front line) work. Huh? Don't they say that those bonuses work really well? So that's a lot of reason to use them, ain't it?
yorwba 3y ago
Where are you getting from that anyone was tricked? To me, it seems more like the obvious-with-hindsight observation that when you delegate your side of the negotiations to someone else (the guidance counselor) it's not enough to offer a good deal to the counterparty, you also need to motivate your own negotiator. E.g. one possible explanation for the observed effect is that the guidance counselors without incentive plan points simply failed to mention the enlistment bonus, rendering it ineffective.
- photonthug 3y ago
  See my comment to sibling. Bad for any "consumer" if any sales process works this way really, but if we're talking "guidance" for career paths or life and death, this just seems insanely hostile and abusive
  - eru 3y ago
    What's the death rate for soldiers in the US? Some cursory research says that soldiers might be safer than average citizens. https://www.army.mil/article/260633/soldiers_are_safer_than_their_civilian_counterparts_in_the_general_u_s_population https://www.army.mil/article/260633/soldiers_are_safer_than_... (No clue whether that source is any good.) So it doesn't look like soldier is a particularly 'life and death' profession in the US compared to the rest of the country; even though the stereotype of soldiering being dangerous exists.
akira2501 3y ago
A few paragraphs before that one: "Second, the services should offer more people enlistment bonuses and increase the dollar amounts of those bonuses. Research shows that enlistment bonuses expand the supply of recruits overall and have an especially large effect when targeted to recruits who choose to train in critical specialties" And the paragraph immediately preceding that one: "An important aspect of recruiter management is an incentive system that provides recruiters with incentives to be productive. Research shows that these incentive systems affect recruiter productivity in terms of the quality, number, and timing of enlistments.20 Recruiters are incentivized to increase effort when these plans are designed properly, but the plans can have perverse unintended effects if not designed well. For example, one study found that Army recruit screening was poorer at the end of the recruiting month, when recruiters are incentivized to meet their monthly recruiting missions."
Swenrekcah 3y ago
A study hopefully displays their findings truthfully. This was a result they found. The government is not obligated to implement the dishonest incentive structure just because a study found it to be effective. Now whether they did so or not I don’t know. I hope not because it is the sort of thing that works in the short term and drastically undermines trust in the long term.
Animats 3y ago
Terminology: "Guidance counselor" means "recruiting sergeant" here.[1] This is not about school guidance counselors. It's about someone who works in an Army recruiting station. These are military HR people. "Guidance" means matching up potential recruit skills and open Army jobs. [1] https://recruiting.army.mil/Portals/15/Documents/Forms%20and%20Pubs/Regulations/UR%20350-1.pdf https://recruiting.army.mil/Portals/15/Documents/Forms%20and...

austin-cheney 3y ago

I fail to see where anybody is being tricked in your quote. Research has indicated that Americans are progressively becoming more risk adverse, obese, and more injury prone over time. If only 23% of Americans qualify for military service now that number will become much smaller in the future. The potential rarity of viable recruits could become a new unexpected driver of personal wealth as military service becomes a new form wealthy exceptionalism available only to those gifted few.

photonthug 3y ago
Huh? My read is, this basically says there's no reason to give a recruit bonuses for priority (like say, undesirable and dangerous front line) work. It's more effective incentivizing the recruiter (like maybe he could just forget to mention other work is even available). There is no way this incentive structure leads to honesty for recruiter or upward mobility for the recruit
- eru 3y ago
  > My read is, this basically says there's no reason to give a recruit bonuses for priority (like say, undesirable and dangerous front line) work. Huh? Don't they say that those bonuses work really well? So that's a lot of reason to use them, ain't it?

yorwba 3y ago

Where are you getting from that anyone was tricked? To me, it seems more like the obvious-with-hindsight observation that when you delegate your side of the negotiations to someone else (the guidance counselor) it's not enough to offer a good deal to the counterparty, you also need to motivate your own negotiator. E.g. one possible explanation for the observed effect is that the guidance counselors without incentive plan points simply failed to mention the enlistment bonus, rendering it ineffective.

photonthug 3y ago
See my comment to sibling. Bad for any "consumer" if any sales process works this way really, but if we're talking "guidance" for career paths or life and death, this just seems insanely hostile and abusive
- eru 3y ago
  What's the death rate for soldiers in the US? Some cursory research says that soldiers might be safer than average citizens. https://www.army.mil/article/260633/soldiers_are_safer_than_their_civilian_counterparts_in_the_general_u_s_population https://www.army.mil/article/260633/soldiers_are_safer_than_... (No clue whether that source is any good.) So it doesn't look like soldier is a particularly 'life and death' profession in the US compared to the rest of the country; even though the stereotype of soldiering being dangerous exists.

akira2501 3y ago

A few paragraphs before that one: "Second, the services should offer more people enlistment bonuses and increase the dollar amounts of those bonuses. Research shows that enlistment bonuses expand the supply of recruits overall and have an especially large effect when targeted to recruits who choose to train in critical specialties" And the paragraph immediately preceding that one: "An important aspect of recruiter management is an incentive system that provides recruiters with incentives to be productive. Research shows that these incentive systems affect recruiter productivity in terms of the quality, number, and timing of enlistments.20 Recruiters are incentivized to increase effort when these plans are designed properly, but the plans can have perverse unintended effects if not designed well. For example, one study found that Army recruit screening was poorer at the end of the recruiting month, when recruiters are incentivized to meet their monthly recruiting missions."

Swenrekcah 3y ago

A study hopefully displays their findings truthfully. This was a result they found. The government is not obligated to implement the dishonest incentive structure just because a study found it to be effective. Now whether they did so or not I don’t know. I hope not because it is the sort of thing that works in the short term and drastically undermines trust in the long term.

Animats 3y ago

Terminology: "Guidance counselor" means "recruiting sergeant" here.[1] This is not about school guidance counselors. It's about someone who works in an Army recruiting station. These are military HR people. "Guidance" means matching up potential recruit skills and open Army jobs. [1] https://recruiting.army.mil/Portals/15/Documents/Forms%20and%20Pubs/Regulations/UR%20350-1.pdf https://recruiting.army.mil/Portals/15/Documents/Forms%20and...