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>> P-zombies believe they have consciousness, say they have it... > Yes, but by definition, they lack the subjective qualities of our experiences. And, also b

>> P-zombies believe they have consciousness, say they have it... > Yes, but by definition, they lack the subjective qualities of our experiences. And, also by definition, each p-zombie has (at least in an accessible possible world) a physically identical, but conscious, doppelgänger. Speaking and writing are physical processes, so in any circumstance where the conscious doppelgänger writes about the reality of its consciousness, the physically-identical p_zombie will do the same. In the case of the p-zombie, there was a causal process leading to the physical act of writing in which consciousness played no part - and, ex hypothesi, the same physical causality must have played out in the zombie's conscious doppelgänger. In general, whatever explains the zombie's observable characteristics is sufficient to explain the doppelgänger's observable characteristics, and that explanation cannot be dependent on consciousness. In particular, if one accepts the possibility of p-zombies, one must logically accept that no explanation of consciousness, regardless of how thorough and well-supported it seems to be, has any basis in any facts about consciousness. A consistent belief in zombies seems to lead to epiphenomenalism, the notion that we have conscious experiences, but they play no part in what happens to our bodies. Frank Jackson, author of the well-known "Mary the neuroscientist" thought experiment, came to the same conclusion, which is why it appeared in a paper with the title "Epiphenomenal Qualia." For more on zombies, see Dennett, "The Unimagined Preposterousness of Zombies."

goatlover 3y ago
Right, so one can reject the possibility of p-zombies. Consciousness plays a role in why we think we're conscious. > In particular, if one accepts the possibility of p-zombies, one must logically accept that no explanation of consciousness, regardless of how thorough and well-supported it seems to be, has any basis in any facts about consciousness. Although I disagree somewhat here, because logical isn't the same thing as physical. All you can say is there is no physical explanation of consciousness. But you could logically come up with one. For example, Chalmers has proposed an additional natural law connecting consciousness to information rich processes. Natural doesn't necessitate physical, if the universe contains more than physical stuff. Or if physicalism is the wrong ontology of nature. I take the p-zombie and Mary Room arguments to be critiques of physicalism.
- mannykannot 3y ago
  I feel you may be overlooking the significance of the final clause in the sentence you quoted. Sure, one could come up with some hand-wavy outline of a non-physical explanation of consciousness which does not clearly stand in contradiction with a belief in the possibility of zombies - panpsychists do it all the time! - but that final clause is about verification. If zombies are possible, then consciousness is not doing anything observable that is not attributable to just the physical processes of the physical body. I suppose zombiephiles could simply posit some sort of non-physical observable, but then they would be just piling on further unsubstantiated claims for the sake of preserving the zombie-possibility doctrine. They could adopt epiphenomenalism, but that means accepting that the apparent causal effectiveness of qualia is illusory. They might adopt a solipsistic stance and say that their conscious experiences are the only things they can be sure about, but that comes with a hefty dose of motte-and-baileyism: you doubt the external world, but you're sure about zombies? On Chalmers' "additional natural law connecting consciousness to information rich processes": Firstly, proposing something is cheap; turning it into a verifiable hypothesis and then following through is hard, and Chalmers et. al. seem to have no interest or intention of doing that, preferring instead to endlessly repeat their anti-physicalism arguments. Secondly, there is an attempt to redefine what's meant by 'physical'. The physical was originally defined by what's tangible to our senses, and as additional phenomena having a causal connection to the physical world were discovered, they were naturally subsumed into an expanded concept of it (gravity, for example, despite Newton's unease over doing so.) Chalmers is free to propose causes that lie outside of our current concept of the physical (and he's even free to look for them!) but to insist, without any justification, that they would be non-physical, is at least tendentious and probably question-begging. To settle the question, we need more facts, not more speculation. I'm not sure what to make of your last sentence: the p-zombie and Mary Room arguments are indeed intended to be critiques of physicalism, but as you have rejected the possibility of zombies, I assume you do not take them both to be successful arguments. One thing about Mary's Room is that you can make essentially the same argument, but with Mary's prior knowledge including Chalmers' additional natural laws.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    There are many non-physical things, like the laws of physics. We know they exist, just at a higher dimension of being.
naasking 3y ago
> And, also by definition, each p-zombie has (at least in an accessible possible world) a physically identical, but conscious, doppelgänger. I agree that epiphenomenalism entails absurdities, therefore either all people in any possible world are p-zombies or p-zombies cannot exist in any world.

goatlover 3y ago

Right, so one can reject the possibility of p-zombies. Consciousness plays a role in why we think we're conscious. > In particular, if one accepts the possibility of p-zombies, one must logically accept that no explanation of consciousness, regardless of how thorough and well-supported it seems to be, has any basis in any facts about consciousness. Although I disagree somewhat here, because logical isn't the same thing as physical. All you can say is there is no physical explanation of consciousness. But you could logically come up with one. For example, Chalmers has proposed an additional natural law connecting consciousness to information rich processes. Natural doesn't necessitate physical, if the universe contains more than physical stuff. Or if physicalism is the wrong ontology of nature. I take the p-zombie and Mary Room arguments to be critiques of physicalism.

mannykannot 3y ago
I feel you may be overlooking the significance of the final clause in the sentence you quoted. Sure, one could come up with some hand-wavy outline of a non-physical explanation of consciousness which does not clearly stand in contradiction with a belief in the possibility of zombies - panpsychists do it all the time! - but that final clause is about verification. If zombies are possible, then consciousness is not doing anything observable that is not attributable to just the physical processes of the physical body. I suppose zombiephiles could simply posit some sort of non-physical observable, but then they would be just piling on further unsubstantiated claims for the sake of preserving the zombie-possibility doctrine. They could adopt epiphenomenalism, but that means accepting that the apparent causal effectiveness of qualia is illusory. They might adopt a solipsistic stance and say that their conscious experiences are the only things they can be sure about, but that comes with a hefty dose of motte-and-baileyism: you doubt the external world, but you're sure about zombies? On Chalmers' "additional natural law connecting consciousness to information rich processes": Firstly, proposing something is cheap; turning it into a verifiable hypothesis and then following through is hard, and Chalmers et. al. seem to have no interest or intention of doing that, preferring instead to endlessly repeat their anti-physicalism arguments. Secondly, there is an attempt to redefine what's meant by 'physical'. The physical was originally defined by what's tangible to our senses, and as additional phenomena having a causal connection to the physical world were discovered, they were naturally subsumed into an expanded concept of it (gravity, for example, despite Newton's unease over doing so.) Chalmers is free to propose causes that lie outside of our current concept of the physical (and he's even free to look for them!) but to insist, without any justification, that they would be non-physical, is at least tendentious and probably question-begging. To settle the question, we need more facts, not more speculation. I'm not sure what to make of your last sentence: the p-zombie and Mary Room arguments are indeed intended to be critiques of physicalism, but as you have rejected the possibility of zombies, I assume you do not take them both to be successful arguments. One thing about Mary's Room is that you can make essentially the same argument, but with Mary's prior knowledge including Chalmers' additional natural laws.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  There are many non-physical things, like the laws of physics. We know they exist, just at a higher dimension of being.

naasking 3y ago

> And, also by definition, each p-zombie has (at least in an accessible possible world) a physically identical, but conscious, doppelgänger. I agree that epiphenomenalism entails absurdities, therefore either all people in any possible world are p-zombies or p-zombies cannot exist in any world.