4 ms·

Controversial California bill would physically stop new cars from speeding

23 points by gnicholas 3y ago

YourGrace 3y ago
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. While this is based on good intentions to try to reduce traffic fatalities, I personally feel it's an overstep to try and mandate devices to track to limit a car's top speed. This isn't even considering the edge cases and ensuring this works properly. The only close thing I can relate this to is an Ignition Interlock Device to limit DUIs, but that seems more acceptable to me since it limits the starting of the car instead of interfering while the car is running and it's required after someone loses the community's trust by having DUIs.
theendisney2 3y ago
Here is an even worse idea: display the bank saldo on the dash. When you go over the speed limit the dollars start counting down exponentially.
barrysteve 3y ago
There it is. The line. Physically forcing anything is a failure of governance. If you have to force it, you had no authority in the first place and you're just covering up that fact. America is absolutely committed to creating hell on earth.
costanzaDynasty 3y ago
Do you think that California could shut the fuck up until the first Wednesday in November? Independents are poised to deliver the election results California wants, however these are the type of stories and issues that are just enough to stick in a voters head during a decision point.
quantified 3y ago
Will they register Lambos and Maseratis purchased out of state? If not, it'll nudge other behaviors.
Lammy 3y ago
In the future only money will have freedom of movement, never humans.
gnicholas 3y ago
> The technology would use GPS and a database of roadway speeds to prevent cars from going 10 miles per hour over the speed limit wherever they are. Sometimes my GPS thinks I'm on an adjacent road, especially when I'm on the freeway. Seems like that kind of error would be catastrophic in combination with a system like this. Also, what's the rationale for letting people go 10 over the limit? That's effectively admitting that people go 10 over the limit, and it's OK.
- nimfan 3y ago
  Text of the proposed law [1]: "28171. (a) Commencing with the 2027 model year, every passenger vehicle... be equipped with an intelligent speed limiter system." and (b) "be capable of being temporarily disabled by the driver of the vehicle." Also: (c) "shall be capable of being fully disabled by the manufacturer or a franchisee, but only as provided in Section 28172." (28172 is about EMS etc.). I smell loopholes for me (politicians, and likely techies ;-), but not for thee. Also interesting how GPS jammers haven't entered the chat yet? [1] https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB961/2023 https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB961/2023
- m-p-3 3y ago
  The car speedometer will estimates the vehicle's speed by measuring the number of revolutions per minute of one of the wheel or its transmission. If the car has different-sized tires than the ones it was originally designed for, there may be some discrepancies between the actual speed vs the speedometer readings, which is why there is some leeway in the speed limit to account for that margin of error.
- kirubakaran 3y ago
  > what's the rationale for letting people go 10 over the limit One reason among many: for passing, especially semis, without spending forever in their blind-spot
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    Is it technically legal to exceed the speed limit when passing? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying no one ever speeds. I’m just wondering what the reasoning would be in this case. Seems to reify speeding, if anything.
lnxg33k1 3y ago
What if someone has to go to hospital or run from the police?
- syndicatedjelly 3y ago
  Individual circumstances are never considered in a socialist state
  - quantified 3y ago
    Or, any state with power. Look at Indiana and pregnant preteens.
    - lnxg33k1 3y ago
      Except that in case of California they are willing to give up even money from speeding fines for a perceived public safery, might be short sighted a bit too much but at least the heart is in the right place, in the other case is just a way to limit people freedom, destruction of careers and potential appeasement of some imaginary friend in the sky
      - quantified 3y ago
        I referenced Michaal Dukakis elsewhere, but what REALLY ground everyone's geara was that the speed enforcement was to raise fines issued. He was campaigning on the Massachusetts Miracle, with a healthy budget, and shortfalls were appearing that needed to be filled. The effect that everyone hated was the enforcement. That it was to harvest their money for his ambition definitely increased the hate.
- quantified 3y ago
  Tough. I think this has a snowball's chance but it could move the Overton window. Look for CA population decline if it passes.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Seems like one of those circumstances could justify an exception. The other, not as much. OJ wouldn’t mind though, given the speed at which he preferred to flee the LAPD.
engcoach 3y ago
How do we tweak our political system to minimize the impact of control freaks?
- timeagain 3y ago
  The freaks would reply, “how do we tweak our traffic infrastructure to minimize the effect of deadly irresponsibility?”
jfisher4024 3y ago
This is like how CI forces developers to write better code by nudging us towards good behaviors. Is it annoying sometimes to write well-formatted code with high test coverage? Sure. Is it annoying to drive at the speed limit? Sure. Ultimately, it leads to a better outcome. If this gets adopted, within 10 years people won’t be able to imagine how we lived without it
- Cheer2171 3y ago
  It seems like most Americans genuinely believe they have not only a right to break the law when it comes to speed limits, but an obligation to speed. Or at least they drive like it. "I'm following the flow of traffic" as if other people breaking the law makes it OK? They feel like they have to race other cars on the road. I had several completely "straight edge" friends who were obsessed with morality and would never break any law. Except get in a car with them and they go 10-15 mph over, but obsessively look for cops. If they see one, they go 5-10 mph under the limit. If they get a ticket, to them it wasn't like they did something wrong, they just had bad luck. I like to go the speed limit in the second from the right hand lane, often behind a large 18 wheel truck, put it in cruise control, and mostly watch the cars fly by me. This idea was unthinkable to them, even when they were not in a rush.
  - endominus 3y ago
    >It seems like most Americans genuinely believe they have not only a right to break the law when it comes to speed limits, but an obligation to speed. Or at least they drive like it. "I'm following the flow of traffic" as if other people breaking the law makes it OK? That seems to be a true sentiment, though[0][1][2]. Deviating significantly from the speed of actual traffic will likely lead to more accidents. Insisting stubbornly on following the letter of the law when it is actually detrimental to safety is not moral; it is merely pedantic. Fiat justitia ruat caelum is not a particularly healthy view of the relationship between the legal system and society. [0]: https://trid.trb.org/view/306976 https://trid.trb.org/view/306976 (From the abstract: "A major influence on speed variance is the difference between the design speed and the posted speed limit. It was determined that speed variance will approach minimum values if the posted speed limit is between 5 and 10 mph lower than the design speed. Outside this range, speed variance increases with an increasing difference between the design speed and the posted speed limit. It was also found that drivers tend to drive at increasing speeds as the roadway geometric characteristics improve, regardless of the posted speed limit, and that accident rates do not necessarily increase with an increase in average speed but do increase with an increase in speed variance.") [1]: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1904038 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1904038 ("A model of the optimal speed limit is developed which explicitly recognizes the role of average speed, speed variance, and the level of enforcement. An unusual result emerges, namely that a higher speed limit may be optimal when reducing the variance in highway speeds reduces accident externalities.") [2]: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/17098/003.cfm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/17098/... ("Separate studies by Solomon (1964) and Cirillo (1968) concluded that, as vehicle speeds deviated from the average speed of the traffic stream, crash involvement rates increased... Studies throughout the 1970s produced findings consistent with the research... For crash severity, higher vehicle operating speeds are associated with more severe crash outcomes. However, the relationship between crash frequency and speed is not as clear. There is some indication that increasing posted speed limits is associated with an increase in expected crash frequency; however, the relationship between operating speed and crash frequency has yet to be well established.")
afavour 3y ago
An aside but I’ve always found it fascinating that Google Maps etc have built in alerts when you’re about to pass a speed camera. The only use I can think of for this functionality is to make it easier for you to speed without getting a ticket. I find it interesting that we’re so permissive of something like that when we’re draconian about so much else.
- kurtoid 3y ago
  Legally speaking, I feel like it'd be a lot harder to limit information Also, if they did legislate it out of Google maps, I bet you can recreate it using a background service and an overlay
Cheer2171 3y ago
I was half expecting this to be about speed bumps. I'm being pedantic, but I would use "automatically stop" instead of "physically stop" when we are talking about software control systems.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
altairprime 3y ago
He would have more success, and I bet he plans to negotiate back down to, simply setting a governor limit of 85 miles per hour for all cars sold in the state. It won’t stop residential harm, but it’ll stop the people weaving highway traffic at 90+ mph, and that’s a useful step to take.

23 points by gnicholas 3y ago

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. While this is based on good intentions to try to reduce traffic fatalities, I personally feel it's an overstep to try and mandate devices to track to limit a car's top speed. This isn't even considering the edge cases and ensuring this works properly. The only close thing I can relate this to is an Ignition Interlock Device to limit DUIs, but that seems more acceptable to me since it limits the starting of the car instead of interfering while the car is running and it's required after someone loses the community's trust by having DUIs.

theendisney2 3y ago

Here is an even worse idea: display the bank saldo on the dash. When you go over the speed limit the dollars start counting down exponentially.

barrysteve 3y ago

There it is. The line. Physically forcing anything is a failure of governance. If you have to force it, you had no authority in the first place and you're just covering up that fact. America is absolutely committed to creating hell on earth.

costanzaDynasty 3y ago

Do you think that California could shut the fuck up until the first Wednesday in November? Independents are poised to deliver the election results California wants, however these are the type of stories and issues that are just enough to stick in a voters head during a decision point.

quantified 3y ago

Will they register Lambos and Maseratis purchased out of state? If not, it'll nudge other behaviors.

Lammy 3y ago

In the future only money will have freedom of movement, never humans.

gnicholas 3y ago

> The technology would use GPS and a database of roadway speeds to prevent cars from going 10 miles per hour over the speed limit wherever they are. Sometimes my GPS thinks I'm on an adjacent road, especially when I'm on the freeway. Seems like that kind of error would be catastrophic in combination with a system like this. Also, what's the rationale for letting people go 10 over the limit? That's effectively admitting that people go 10 over the limit, and it's OK.

nimfan 3y ago
Text of the proposed law [1]: "28171. (a) Commencing with the 2027 model year, every passenger vehicle... be equipped with an intelligent speed limiter system." and (b) "be capable of being temporarily disabled by the driver of the vehicle." Also: (c) "shall be capable of being fully disabled by the manufacturer or a franchisee, but only as provided in Section 28172." (28172 is about EMS etc.). I smell loopholes for me (politicians, and likely techies ;-), but not for thee. Also interesting how GPS jammers haven't entered the chat yet? [1] https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB961/2023 https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB961/2023
m-p-3 3y ago
The car speedometer will estimates the vehicle's speed by measuring the number of revolutions per minute of one of the wheel or its transmission. If the car has different-sized tires than the ones it was originally designed for, there may be some discrepancies between the actual speed vs the speedometer readings, which is why there is some leeway in the speed limit to account for that margin of error.
kirubakaran 3y ago
> what's the rationale for letting people go 10 over the limit One reason among many: for passing, especially semis, without spending forever in their blind-spot
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Is it technically legal to exceed the speed limit when passing? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying no one ever speeds. I’m just wondering what the reasoning would be in this case. Seems to reify speeding, if anything.

lnxg33k1 3y ago

What if someone has to go to hospital or run from the police?

syndicatedjelly 3y ago
Individual circumstances are never considered in a socialist state
- quantified 3y ago
  Or, any state with power. Look at Indiana and pregnant preteens.
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    Except that in case of California they are willing to give up even money from speeding fines for a perceived public safery, might be short sighted a bit too much but at least the heart is in the right place, in the other case is just a way to limit people freedom, destruction of careers and potential appeasement of some imaginary friend in the sky
    - quantified 3y ago
      I referenced Michaal Dukakis elsewhere, but what REALLY ground everyone's geara was that the speed enforcement was to raise fines issued. He was campaigning on the Massachusetts Miracle, with a healthy budget, and shortfalls were appearing that needed to be filled. The effect that everyone hated was the enforcement. That it was to harvest their money for his ambition definitely increased the hate.
quantified 3y ago
Tough. I think this has a snowball's chance but it could move the Overton window. Look for CA population decline if it passes.
gnicholas 3y ago
Seems like one of those circumstances could justify an exception. The other, not as much. OJ wouldn’t mind though, given the speed at which he preferred to flee the LAPD.

engcoach 3y ago

How do we tweak our political system to minimize the impact of control freaks?

timeagain 3y ago
The freaks would reply, “how do we tweak our traffic infrastructure to minimize the effect of deadly irresponsibility?”

jfisher4024 3y ago

This is like how CI forces developers to write better code by nudging us towards good behaviors. Is it annoying sometimes to write well-formatted code with high test coverage? Sure. Is it annoying to drive at the speed limit? Sure. Ultimately, it leads to a better outcome. If this gets adopted, within 10 years people won’t be able to imagine how we lived without it

Cheer2171 3y ago
It seems like most Americans genuinely believe they have not only a right to break the law when it comes to speed limits, but an obligation to speed. Or at least they drive like it. "I'm following the flow of traffic" as if other people breaking the law makes it OK? They feel like they have to race other cars on the road. I had several completely "straight edge" friends who were obsessed with morality and would never break any law. Except get in a car with them and they go 10-15 mph over, but obsessively look for cops. If they see one, they go 5-10 mph under the limit. If they get a ticket, to them it wasn't like they did something wrong, they just had bad luck. I like to go the speed limit in the second from the right hand lane, often behind a large 18 wheel truck, put it in cruise control, and mostly watch the cars fly by me. This idea was unthinkable to them, even when they were not in a rush.
- endominus 3y ago
  >It seems like most Americans genuinely believe they have not only a right to break the law when it comes to speed limits, but an obligation to speed. Or at least they drive like it. "I'm following the flow of traffic" as if other people breaking the law makes it OK? That seems to be a true sentiment, though[0][1][2]. Deviating significantly from the speed of actual traffic will likely lead to more accidents. Insisting stubbornly on following the letter of the law when it is actually detrimental to safety is not moral; it is merely pedantic. Fiat justitia ruat caelum is not a particularly healthy view of the relationship between the legal system and society. [0]: https://trid.trb.org/view/306976 https://trid.trb.org/view/306976 (From the abstract: "A major influence on speed variance is the difference between the design speed and the posted speed limit. It was determined that speed variance will approach minimum values if the posted speed limit is between 5 and 10 mph lower than the design speed. Outside this range, speed variance increases with an increasing difference between the design speed and the posted speed limit. It was also found that drivers tend to drive at increasing speeds as the roadway geometric characteristics improve, regardless of the posted speed limit, and that accident rates do not necessarily increase with an increase in average speed but do increase with an increase in speed variance.") [1]: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1904038 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1904038 ("A model of the optimal speed limit is developed which explicitly recognizes the role of average speed, speed variance, and the level of enforcement. An unusual result emerges, namely that a higher speed limit may be optimal when reducing the variance in highway speeds reduces accident externalities.") [2]: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/17098/003.cfm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/17098/... ("Separate studies by Solomon (1964) and Cirillo (1968) concluded that, as vehicle speeds deviated from the average speed of the traffic stream, crash involvement rates increased... Studies throughout the 1970s produced findings consistent with the research... For crash severity, higher vehicle operating speeds are associated with more severe crash outcomes. However, the relationship between crash frequency and speed is not as clear. There is some indication that increasing posted speed limits is associated with an increase in expected crash frequency; however, the relationship between operating speed and crash frequency has yet to be well established.")

afavour 3y ago

An aside but I’ve always found it fascinating that Google Maps etc have built in alerts when you’re about to pass a speed camera. The only use I can think of for this functionality is to make it easier for you to speed without getting a ticket. I find it interesting that we’re so permissive of something like that when we’re draconian about so much else.

kurtoid 3y ago
Legally speaking, I feel like it'd be a lot harder to limit information Also, if they did legislate it out of Google maps, I bet you can recreate it using a background service and an overlay

Cheer2171 3y ago

I was half expecting this to be about speed bumps. I'm being pedantic, but I would use "automatically stop" instead of "physically stop" when we are talking about software control systems.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

altairprime 3y ago

He would have more success, and I bet he plans to negotiate back down to, simply setting a governor limit of 85 miles per hour for all cars sold in the state. It won’t stop residential harm, but it’ll stop the people weaving highway traffic at 90+ mph, and that’s a useful step to take.