3 ms·

>"In fact, when it came to just trying to live as a foreigner in the country itself, all the bureaucracies were in place. It was really hard doing everyday thin

>"In fact, when it came to just trying to live as a foreigner in the country itself, all the bureaucracies were in place. It was really hard doing everyday things like renting a bike, getting a SIM card, or even getting a gym membership. I really struggled..." I'm an expat (full-time in Thailand) and this is so true. 10 years since I made the move and new immigration-related red tape pops up all the time.

bhaney 3y ago
Can you give some details on that? What kind of restrictions are there on foreigners trying to rent/buy basic things, and how do you get around them?
- rfarley04 3y ago
  Probably the best example is opening a bank account. If you don't have a work visa, you can't get an ATM card or, more importantly, the bank provider's mobile app, which is where the vast majority of payments take place (even street food vendors--way better electronic payments than the US IMO). The same goes for a metro or subway card. You can buy them one-off with cash, but the lines are super long. If you have a work permit, you can get a public transit card that you reload from, you guessed it, your bank app. I don't remember the process for SIM cards. You can definitely get a travel one. Mine is "permanent" because for a brief period I had a work-permit job. Renting an apartment the "right" (legal) way requires a ton of paperwork, but most landlords just fudge all the difficult fields. And that's true for a bunch of services/requirements in Thailand. Probably worst of all is that even if you have a work permit (or, in my case, a marriage visa), you still have to go to immigration once every 90 days just to confirm that you're still in the country and don't have any warrants out for your arrest. 90-day reports are the bane of any foreigner in Thailand and take a whole day for what is essentially just a roll call.
  - nicbou 3y ago
    I help people settle in Germany and it's very similar. The system is never designed with immigrants in consideration. Moving here involves "creating" a person in a bunch of systems all at once, instead of over two decades. That exposes a lot of circular dependencies in bureaucratic requirements. Untangling those is a full time job for me.
  - mikhailfranco 3y ago
    Yes, 90-day reporting makes no sense. I am also a 3 hr drive from my nearest immigration office, so a full day, ferry crossing, city traffic, with costs of car rental & gas. There's no fee for the 90-day renewal, so no opportunity for expecting a bribe - unlike so many other aspects of Thai immigration, where chance of a bribe seems to guide policy, and obfuscation of those policies. So the 90-day renewal does not even enrich govt, or (more importantly :) its immi officers. It is just an unjustified nuisance to all participants. And you need an exit visa if you plan to leave the country before the 90 days and then re-enter. Also unnecessary, because you will transit immigration at the border anyway - unless you are sailing out on your private yacht :)
  - mikhailfranco 3y ago
    Banks are the new enforcers of govt policies, from KYC/AML, to full surveillance. It is difficult to move countries and change banks/phones/2FA. Banks seem to think that changing a phone is significant - they Knew Their Customer last month, but getting a burner phone in a different country seems to mean they do not Know You Now as a Customer. Phones do not (should not) indicate anything other than travel or holiday - not residence, not tax liability, not property ownership, not marriage, not intentions for a full tax year, nothing.
  - mikhailfranco 3y ago
    Property rental is another whole topic. If you are renting in a resort/tower/block from a company, and they have an online govt account (most should), then when you sign a lease or long-stay, they should file a TM 10 online. You should report to the immi office within 30 days, but it's a formality, they just check on the system. When you next do annual renewal, you need to bring copies of the property ownership records (Blue Book, etc.), but the company should be well-organized, well-documented and familiar with the procedure. The problem is private landlords. They do not have online account, and you together, will have to file paper TM 10 at the immi office. You will need Blue Book etc, but there may be a chain of ownerships of the property, mixing Thai individuals, Thai companies, and farangs who want to hide their identity or stake (more than 49% ownership by farangs is illegal). Then it can be almost impossible to get the right docs. You cannot stay hotel, temporary boarding, or AirBnB for a long-term visa.
  - mikhailfranco 3y ago
    I recommend you do not use a visa agent to get a long-term Thai visa (1yr). They will charge about 25k THB ($700) and my understanding is that at least 10k THB of that goes directly to the immigration officer as a bribe. It also means less work for the officer, as they just automatically stamp submissions by a trusted agency (they know it will be accurate and complete). Note, that bribing public officials is an offence in your home country, if you are from US, UK, EU, (... OECD), because FCPA, UK BA etc. Doing your own application, without any bribe, is the best approach, ethically and financially (but not for stress and hassle :) Make it a point of honor to do the application yourself.

bhaney 3y ago

Can you give some details on that? What kind of restrictions are there on foreigners trying to rent/buy basic things, and how do you get around them?

rfarley04 3y ago
Probably the best example is opening a bank account. If you don't have a work visa, you can't get an ATM card or, more importantly, the bank provider's mobile app, which is where the vast majority of payments take place (even street food vendors--way better electronic payments than the US IMO). The same goes for a metro or subway card. You can buy them one-off with cash, but the lines are super long. If you have a work permit, you can get a public transit card that you reload from, you guessed it, your bank app. I don't remember the process for SIM cards. You can definitely get a travel one. Mine is "permanent" because for a brief period I had a work-permit job. Renting an apartment the "right" (legal) way requires a ton of paperwork, but most landlords just fudge all the difficult fields. And that's true for a bunch of services/requirements in Thailand. Probably worst of all is that even if you have a work permit (or, in my case, a marriage visa), you still have to go to immigration once every 90 days just to confirm that you're still in the country and don't have any warrants out for your arrest. 90-day reports are the bane of any foreigner in Thailand and take a whole day for what is essentially just a roll call.
- nicbou 3y ago
  I help people settle in Germany and it's very similar. The system is never designed with immigrants in consideration. Moving here involves "creating" a person in a bunch of systems all at once, instead of over two decades. That exposes a lot of circular dependencies in bureaucratic requirements. Untangling those is a full time job for me.
- mikhailfranco 3y ago
  Yes, 90-day reporting makes no sense. I am also a 3 hr drive from my nearest immigration office, so a full day, ferry crossing, city traffic, with costs of car rental & gas. There's no fee for the 90-day renewal, so no opportunity for expecting a bribe - unlike so many other aspects of Thai immigration, where chance of a bribe seems to guide policy, and obfuscation of those policies. So the 90-day renewal does not even enrich govt, or (more importantly :) its immi officers. It is just an unjustified nuisance to all participants. And you need an exit visa if you plan to leave the country before the 90 days and then re-enter. Also unnecessary, because you will transit immigration at the border anyway - unless you are sailing out on your private yacht :)
- mikhailfranco 3y ago
  Banks are the new enforcers of govt policies, from KYC/AML, to full surveillance. It is difficult to move countries and change banks/phones/2FA. Banks seem to think that changing a phone is significant - they Knew Their Customer last month, but getting a burner phone in a different country seems to mean they do not Know You Now as a Customer. Phones do not (should not) indicate anything other than travel or holiday - not residence, not tax liability, not property ownership, not marriage, not intentions for a full tax year, nothing.
- mikhailfranco 3y ago
  Property rental is another whole topic. If you are renting in a resort/tower/block from a company, and they have an online govt account (most should), then when you sign a lease or long-stay, they should file a TM 10 online. You should report to the immi office within 30 days, but it's a formality, they just check on the system. When you next do annual renewal, you need to bring copies of the property ownership records (Blue Book, etc.), but the company should be well-organized, well-documented and familiar with the procedure. The problem is private landlords. They do not have online account, and you together, will have to file paper TM 10 at the immi office. You will need Blue Book etc, but there may be a chain of ownerships of the property, mixing Thai individuals, Thai companies, and farangs who want to hide their identity or stake (more than 49% ownership by farangs is illegal). Then it can be almost impossible to get the right docs. You cannot stay hotel, temporary boarding, or AirBnB for a long-term visa.
- mikhailfranco 3y ago
  I recommend you do not use a visa agent to get a long-term Thai visa (1yr). They will charge about 25k THB ($700) and my understanding is that at least 10k THB of that goes directly to the immigration officer as a bribe. It also means less work for the officer, as they just automatically stamp submissions by a trusted agency (they know it will be accurate and complete). Note, that bribing public officials is an offence in your home country, if you are from US, UK, EU, (... OECD), because FCPA, UK BA etc. Doing your own application, without any bribe, is the best approach, ethically and financially (but not for stress and hassle :) Make it a point of honor to do the application yourself.