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Yes in my view this is really obvious punishment and the EU should increase the pressure on Apple. Don't be afraid of US companies and their bully tactics, let'

Yes in my view this is really obvious punishment and the EU should increase the pressure on Apple. Don't be afraid of US companies and their bully tactics, let's see who has the longer arm. For all I care we can remove Apple devices entirely in the EU. People who want an Apple device can import it "illegally" then.

kmlx 3y ago
> For all I care we can remove Apple devices entirely in the EU. the rest of the world also has no problem with the EU confirming it's status :)
robertlagrant 3y ago
> Don't be afraid of US companies and their bully tactics You might disagree with Apple's move, but all the EU has is power. Apple provides value, from which it derives money. The EU is combatting it not with an environment that allows competitors to arise. It's combatting value with power.
- TwentyPosts 3y ago
  I don't know, seems to me like the EU is providing plenty of value to me. In fact, the EU is making changes that will in fact make it easier for competitors to arise, so I really don't know what you're on about.
- trealira 3y ago
  This situation is like if the majority of the EU's transportation infrastructure (e.g. roads, train tracks, etc.) were owned by a handful of private American companies. Whatever value they provide (maybe it's really good infrastructure), their power comes from their overwhelming dominance and control of these sectors of the economy (i.e. transportation/tech). Don't act as though Apple is some powerless and altruistic party.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > Don't act as though Apple is some powerless and altruistic party. If you have to straw man, what's the point? I'm not mentioning altruism. They provide value; they get money. The second they stop providing value, they have no money. That's different to power. A bureacrat can write some words and suddenly phones can't be sold any more. That's power.
    - trealira 3y ago
      You're making meaningless distinctions. Fundamentally, I don't see a difference between Apple writing some words and suddenly, you have to pay a fee for distribution of iPhone apps on non-Apple app stores, and say, a government writing some words and suddenly, foreign imports have to pay extra taxes. Neither is generating value; they're both rent-seeking in those examples. They both have power because of what's "theirs". Alternately, you could say neither has any power, and both provide value. The government provides value by funding public infrastructure, promoting economic development, protecting citizens from foreign invasion, and so on. If citizens don't like it, they can vote the government out (though it would be different if it were a dictatorship). In my original comment, I was basically irritated by you implying Apple has no "power," and that they can only counter the government's power through "value," i.e., making people's lives better somehow. It's insinuating Apple derives no power from their business, and that Apple provides value for no reason (hence the use of the word "altruism").
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        > Alternately, you could say neither has any power, and both provide value. The government provides value by funding public infrastructure, promoting economic development, protecting citizens from foreign invasion, and so on. If citizens don't like it, they can vote the government out (though it would be different if it were a dictatorship). This is the problem, though. If Apple starts doing a bad job, they will lose all their sales. So they have to constantly re-earn customers, and keep making it worthwhile for developers to build for their platform. Their product is a bit sticky, but not very. The EU - well, the EU doesn't do some of the stuff you list, but even if it did, you can't vote it out. You might be able to vote for your local EU representative, but that's about it, and it's an incredibly weak signal. More simply: Apple provides value, which people will chase. If value stops, Apple will fail. So it needs to keep providing value for people to keep opting in. The EU's regulatory influence ultimately derives from the threat of sanctions and imprisonment. That's power, because you can't opt out.
- hu3 3y ago
  > all the EU has is power. Apple provides value Let me give you one example of some EU provided value: "ASML is the only company in the world that makes a specific machine needed to make the most advanced chips. Apple couldn’t make iPhone chips without this one machine from the Netherlands’ biggest company. ASML doesn’t just shape the Dutch economy — it shapes the entire world economy." source: https://www.theverge.com/23578430/chip-war-chris-miller-asml-intel-apple-samsung-us-china-decoder https://www.theverge.com/23578430/chip-war-chris-miller-asml... Apple could cease to exist today and the world wouldn't lose much except some overpriced gadgets. Couldn't say the same for ASML. And that's just one example.
  - xvector 3y ago
    ASML licenses its fab tech from the US. Regardless, the point is that the EU has zero muscle when it comes to building out consumer-facing software. All it knows how to do is regulate. The EU's answer to AI? To nuke its only successful AI startup, Mistral, with the AI Act [1]. They had to gerrymander an exception in for Mistral. The EU pretends to care about consumer privacy and then introduces Article 45, completely destroying web security and privacy [2] more than Meta/Apple/etc ever could. Fundamentally, the EU does not understand what it is doing. It is a broken clock that is right twice a day. All it has demonstrated is the ability to rent-seek and grift from international tech companies, while enacting protectionist laws that conveniently avoid its own (few) companies. Why isn't Spotify targeted by the DMA? Who knows!? You can say "it doesn't matter, follow our laws!" Okay. But don't be surprised when your TLS communications are being MITM'd by the EU and when companies maliciously comply with these ridiculous laws. The EU can only push things so far, and miss out on so many "industrial revolutions", before it becomes an irrelevant/unprofitable market, impossible to build for. [1]: https://twitter.com/arthurmensch/status/1725076260827566562 https://twitter.com/arthurmensch/status/1725076260827566562 [2]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/11/article-45-will-roll-back-web-security-12-years https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/11/article-45-will-roll-b...
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > Couldn't say the same for ASML ASML is floated on a small EU stock exchange, and also NASDAQ. NASDAQ is what allows them to scale and become enormous and keep their position, other than IP laws on their techniques. I'm not saying the EU can't produce companies; I'm saying that, in this case, if it were good at it they wouldn't need to float in the US to scale.

kmlx 3y ago

> For all I care we can remove Apple devices entirely in the EU. the rest of the world also has no problem with the EU confirming it's status :)

robertlagrant 3y ago

> Don't be afraid of US companies and their bully tactics You might disagree with Apple's move, but all the EU has is power. Apple provides value, from which it derives money. The EU is combatting it not with an environment that allows competitors to arise. It's combatting value with power.

TwentyPosts 3y ago
I don't know, seems to me like the EU is providing plenty of value to me. In fact, the EU is making changes that will in fact make it easier for competitors to arise, so I really don't know what you're on about.
trealira 3y ago
This situation is like if the majority of the EU's transportation infrastructure (e.g. roads, train tracks, etc.) were owned by a handful of private American companies. Whatever value they provide (maybe it's really good infrastructure), their power comes from their overwhelming dominance and control of these sectors of the economy (i.e. transportation/tech). Don't act as though Apple is some powerless and altruistic party.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > Don't act as though Apple is some powerless and altruistic party. If you have to straw man, what's the point? I'm not mentioning altruism. They provide value; they get money. The second they stop providing value, they have no money. That's different to power. A bureacrat can write some words and suddenly phones can't be sold any more. That's power.
  - trealira 3y ago
    You're making meaningless distinctions. Fundamentally, I don't see a difference between Apple writing some words and suddenly, you have to pay a fee for distribution of iPhone apps on non-Apple app stores, and say, a government writing some words and suddenly, foreign imports have to pay extra taxes. Neither is generating value; they're both rent-seeking in those examples. They both have power because of what's "theirs". Alternately, you could say neither has any power, and both provide value. The government provides value by funding public infrastructure, promoting economic development, protecting citizens from foreign invasion, and so on. If citizens don't like it, they can vote the government out (though it would be different if it were a dictatorship). In my original comment, I was basically irritated by you implying Apple has no "power," and that they can only counter the government's power through "value," i.e., making people's lives better somehow. It's insinuating Apple derives no power from their business, and that Apple provides value for no reason (hence the use of the word "altruism").
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > Alternately, you could say neither has any power, and both provide value. The government provides value by funding public infrastructure, promoting economic development, protecting citizens from foreign invasion, and so on. If citizens don't like it, they can vote the government out (though it would be different if it were a dictatorship). This is the problem, though. If Apple starts doing a bad job, they will lose all their sales. So they have to constantly re-earn customers, and keep making it worthwhile for developers to build for their platform. Their product is a bit sticky, but not very. The EU - well, the EU doesn't do some of the stuff you list, but even if it did, you can't vote it out. You might be able to vote for your local EU representative, but that's about it, and it's an incredibly weak signal. More simply: Apple provides value, which people will chase. If value stops, Apple will fail. So it needs to keep providing value for people to keep opting in. The EU's regulatory influence ultimately derives from the threat of sanctions and imprisonment. That's power, because you can't opt out.
hu3 3y ago
> all the EU has is power. Apple provides value Let me give you one example of some EU provided value: "ASML is the only company in the world that makes a specific machine needed to make the most advanced chips. Apple couldn’t make iPhone chips without this one machine from the Netherlands’ biggest company. ASML doesn’t just shape the Dutch economy — it shapes the entire world economy." source: https://www.theverge.com/23578430/chip-war-chris-miller-asml-intel-apple-samsung-us-china-decoder https://www.theverge.com/23578430/chip-war-chris-miller-asml... Apple could cease to exist today and the world wouldn't lose much except some overpriced gadgets. Couldn't say the same for ASML. And that's just one example.
- xvector 3y ago
  ASML licenses its fab tech from the US. Regardless, the point is that the EU has zero muscle when it comes to building out consumer-facing software. All it knows how to do is regulate. The EU's answer to AI? To nuke its only successful AI startup, Mistral, with the AI Act [1]. They had to gerrymander an exception in for Mistral. The EU pretends to care about consumer privacy and then introduces Article 45, completely destroying web security and privacy [2] more than Meta/Apple/etc ever could. Fundamentally, the EU does not understand what it is doing. It is a broken clock that is right twice a day. All it has demonstrated is the ability to rent-seek and grift from international tech companies, while enacting protectionist laws that conveniently avoid its own (few) companies. Why isn't Spotify targeted by the DMA? Who knows!? You can say "it doesn't matter, follow our laws!" Okay. But don't be surprised when your TLS communications are being MITM'd by the EU and when companies maliciously comply with these ridiculous laws. The EU can only push things so far, and miss out on so many "industrial revolutions", before it becomes an irrelevant/unprofitable market, impossible to build for. [1]: https://twitter.com/arthurmensch/status/1725076260827566562 https://twitter.com/arthurmensch/status/1725076260827566562 [2]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/11/article-45-will-roll-back-web-security-12-years https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/11/article-45-will-roll-b...
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > Couldn't say the same for ASML ASML is floated on a small EU stock exchange, and also NASDAQ. NASDAQ is what allows them to scale and become enormous and keep their position, other than IP laws on their techniques. I'm not saying the EU can't produce companies; I'm saying that, in this case, if it were good at it they wouldn't need to float in the US to scale.