6 ms·

Wait what? The nonprofit organisation thing seems very significant. That makes it fairly easy to get around if you’re just developing an app for fun, or for ope

by audunw 3y ago

Wait what? The nonprofit organisation thing seems very significant. That makes it fairly easy to get around if you’re just developing an app for fun, or for open source organisations to get apps distributed. So what are we left with? Apps where users are the product, like Facebook, and freemium apps where you end up paying to get anything useful done with it anyway. Apps where the parent company is making millions if not billions. Is anybody upset that those guys have to chip in for iOS development? I personally think Apples approach is the lesser of two evils. We don’t pay for OS explicitly anymore. But look at Windows and Android… you end up paying somehow in the end anyway. I’d rather it be through fees on apps than more insidious approaches. And no. Paying for the phone is not a viable way to pay for the OS. That incentives the phone maker to ditch OS updates for old phones. And we know that’s a real issue. As long as we pay through app fees the phone makers are incentivised to keep releasing OS updates for old phones.

throwawayqqq11 3y ago
Then why not simply pay for updates instead of squeezing the market?
jlokier 3y ago
> The nonprofit organisation thing seems very significant. That makes it fairly easy [...] I give Apple credit for making this clear rule: Having fewer than 1 million users on iOS in the EU means no fee, and you don't need to worry about status at all. But if you have more installs, I don't think you'll get an easy to get a pass by just by sending Apple a note like "I'm just developing my app for fun" or "My app is open source". Maybe that works, but I wouldn't assume it without testing. If your app has 1 million+ users, it's not at all convincing to say you made it just for fun, even if that's the truth. And we all know some open source apps are written with intent to make a profit, or given away free to promote related commercial activities or reputation, so saying it's open source isn't convincing either. Anecdote: I ran a non-profit org, a hackerspace. Not only was it truly a non-profit organisation, it was legally constituted as such. The members had no legal rights to take any of its funds and resources out, those resources came from members and could only be used for the organisations's stated purpose, and because of this structure no tax was due when its funds grew, as they were primarily from member fees and donations. However, it was not a registered charity. It could have been but we decided the administrative overheads were too high. Unfortunately, we were unable to convince Paypal we were a non-profit despite providing all the organisational documents Paypal requested to prove it (about 10 documents IIRC). This meant we weren't able to use Paypal for significant quantities of funding, i.e. to take membership payments. We could do a tiny amount for a couple of people, but it was capped at a very low limit. If it's impossible to convince Paypal that a formally constituted non-profit qualifies as such, I wouldn't assume it's easy to convince Apple with casual claims, for an app with 1M+ users.
rany_ 3y ago
> Windows and Android… you end up paying somehow in the end anyway I'm not sure why I have to mention this, but you could be paying for something and get screwed over at the same time. The issue isn't that Google/Microsoft/etc NEED to make money this way, but that this is legal to do. Also, Windows isn't exactly cheap and I personally couldn't fathom paying more than 100 bucks for an OS and still get treated like crap. I'm sure Android at best only makes 10 bucks from their users with their current model throughout the device's entire lifetime.
- ribosometronome 3y ago
  >I'm sure Android at best only makes 10 bucks from their users with their current model throughout the device's entire lifetime. I'm pretty sure Google pays Apple more than $10 per year per iPhone user to be the default search on iPhones and Mac. They were paying 18 billion back in 2021. I don't think Apple's marketshare is over 1.8 billion active users yet. Do you think Apple users are just that much more valuable to have searching?
  - amaranth 3y ago
    According to [1] the estimated number of iPhone users (leaving out any Mac users) in 2024 is 1.46 billion. [1] https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/number-of-iphone-users https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/number-of-iphone-users
ankit219 3y ago
> So what are we left with? Gaming apps. A huge majority of Apple's revenue (from IAP) came from gaming purchases. This would continue to be the case. A gaming app would have ads + options for purchases (none can survive without it) and Apple now earns both on downloads and IAPs. Many games cross the 1M threshold once they are popular enough. Gaming apps have low retention, and a power curve in paying users.
- kaba0 3y ago
  And? Other’s shitty shady app store would never have been a good thing - now it is just gonna be financially disincentivized.
  - eptcyka 3y ago
    As someone trying to contribute to an open source iOS app, an app store that doesn't require me to pay money to use the NFC entitlement, muck about changing bundle IDs to be able to build an open source app and run it on my own device, or build an app that I can use for longer than 7 days without publishing to an app store, I take issue with your framing of other app stores. The original app store is already shitty, this legislation will make it not worse, but it will not be the solution to my personal woes with the shitty app store.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Nonprofits are explicitly exempted from the fees. An fdroid like app store seems quite possible.
      - simfree 3y ago
        Not with the Core Technology Fee, nor with the Apple app review process standing in the way. These are severe restrictions that prevent something like FDroid from being operated on iOS.
      - eptcyka 3y ago
        I’d still need to get Apple’s approval to use NFC in an app I’d want to deploy on the non-existent fdroid analogue. I’d still need to pay for that.
gamblor956 3y ago
But look at Windows and Android… you end up paying somehow in the end anyway. Microsoft updates Windows OS for longer than Apple updates MacOS or iOS, despite charging a one-time fee that most end-users don't pay themselves. And is backwards compatible. And works with 99.999999% of the computer hardware ever made. It seems like with Apple, you're just paying for a lot of nothing.
- octacat 3y ago
  And works with 99.999999% - not true with Win 11.
- pharmakom 3y ago
  I once would have agreed with you, but the advertisements and pushiness in Windows are simply unacceptable at this point.
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    The EU is fixing that as well - we'll soon see the privacy version of Win 11 launched in the EU as well.
    - filoleg 3y ago
      That's cool and all, but I either can wait for that to happen or not happen (which is not a certainty), or I can just use macOS (or a flavor of Linux). Sure, the EU will fix things like they've managed to do in the past with other internet-related stuff (e.g., cookie notices). And I will definitely re-evaluate this take once things change in terms of ads for Windows. But until that happens, I don't see "the EU will fix that" as a valid point in favor of Windows.
      - Kipters 3y ago
        The ability to disable the "news" panel is already in preview, it will be released by march https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/windows-11-widgets-will-finally-become-usable-thanks-to-an-upcoming-update https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/wind...
daemonologist 3y ago
Do you need to be an "official" nonprofit, or is it sufficient just to have an app which generates no revenue? If the former, how difficult/expensive is that in the EU?
- markus92 3y ago
  Depends on the country, but in The Netherlands it’s around 500ish to set up a Stichting (foundation) plus some annual fees.
  - thejsa 3y ago
    The main obstacle I see is the €1mm letter of credit, to be honest.
- kaba0 3y ago
  You only need a single nonprofit that creates an F-Droid alternative, and then it can distribute other’s open-source projects freely
  - FateOfNations 3y ago
    Yeah, the non-profit organization requirement is insurance for Apple that you aren't making money off your app some other way. Yeah, it's inconvenient for people who legitimately want to give stuff away for fun, but it isn't an insurmountable obstacle.
makeitdouble 3y ago
I wouldn't call that "fairly easy" in most senses of the term. For instance I didn't even have an idea of what's required in my place to get recognized as non-profit. And it turns out it's specific to each region, and I need to go ask for the paperwork in the first place. If the requirement is really a non profit legal status, Apple just raised the bar from "apps that just make no money" to "apps that registered to their local governing bodies that they have a goal of not making money", and that's a huge leap with a crazy high barrier for a random dev (imagine a kid in uni) to push a free app.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  "Don't have an idea" does not mean "difficult".
- prpl 3y ago
  In the academic/semi-governmental, it was often easier to set up a non-profit in the US and get things for free (e.g. Slack) than to figure out how to do billing for them in a rigid system that wants POs
- FateOfNations 3y ago
  Here in the US at least we have the concept of "fiscal sponsorship" in the non-profit space. A registered non-profit organization acts as sponsor for smaller groups and projects. The activities still have to be compliant, but the small groups don't have to go through the expense of setting up a free-standing organization. The Linux Foundation does this for quite a few open source software projects, for example. This is likely a good model for open source apps in this situation.
  - xyzzy_plugh 3y ago
    Sure... but you can't just "join" the Linux Foundation on a whim. I'd almost argue it's easier to form a non-profit entity that become sponsored by a non-profit organization such as TLF. This almost reinforces the parent's point.
    - 3y ago
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>We don’t pay for OS explicitly anymore. But look at Windows and Android… you end up paying somehow in the end anyway. MS, you pay one time for the OS. Android you technically don't need to pay at all if you go AOSP. Both still require hardware to support the OS, though. >And no. Paying for the phone is not a viable way to pay for the OS. That incentives the phone maker to ditch OS updates for old phones. They do that anyway. mobile support is much lower than desktop which tends to guarantee a decade or so. And it's not like IOS is licensing out to other OEMs anyway.
- evilduck 3y ago
  In Windows you pay every time you open start menu and get blasted with tabloid news, ads and paid article placements. Or you pay in your time (again and again) turning it off each H2 update.
  - Semaphor 3y ago
    I turned it off once and that was it.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    People say this but I just turned off a lot of that at the beginning. I generally do clean installs so I never worry about bloatware and I use Everything (void tools) to search because yes, Windows search just sucks somewhere around the middle of Windows 10. I don't doubt the ads are there but I avoid them easily enough. Fortunately I get the option to get around that stuff, unlike Apple's environments.
riwsky 3y ago
> Paying for the phone is not a viable way to pay for the OS. That incentives the phone maker to ditch OS updates for old phones. Huh? That is Apple’s model, and iOS supports old hardware much longer than Android does.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  We paid for the OS with commission fees from sales and IAP, that's what GP meant I think If next phone prices go up (especially in EU) after this then maybe it is true?

by audunw 3y ago

throwawayqqq11 3y ago

Then why not simply pay for updates instead of squeezing the market?

jlokier 3y ago

> The nonprofit organisation thing seems very significant. That makes it fairly easy [...] I give Apple credit for making this clear rule: Having fewer than 1 million users on iOS in the EU means no fee, and you don't need to worry about status at all. But if you have more installs, I don't think you'll get an easy to get a pass by just by sending Apple a note like "I'm just developing my app for fun" or "My app is open source". Maybe that works, but I wouldn't assume it without testing. If your app has 1 million+ users, it's not at all convincing to say you made it just for fun, even if that's the truth. And we all know some open source apps are written with intent to make a profit, or given away free to promote related commercial activities or reputation, so saying it's open source isn't convincing either. Anecdote: I ran a non-profit org, a hackerspace. Not only was it truly a non-profit organisation, it was legally constituted as such. The members had no legal rights to take any of its funds and resources out, those resources came from members and could only be used for the organisations's stated purpose, and because of this structure no tax was due when its funds grew, as they were primarily from member fees and donations. However, it was not a registered charity. It could have been but we decided the administrative overheads were too high. Unfortunately, we were unable to convince Paypal we were a non-profit despite providing all the organisational documents Paypal requested to prove it (about 10 documents IIRC). This meant we weren't able to use Paypal for significant quantities of funding, i.e. to take membership payments. We could do a tiny amount for a couple of people, but it was capped at a very low limit. If it's impossible to convince Paypal that a formally constituted non-profit qualifies as such, I wouldn't assume it's easy to convince Apple with casual claims, for an app with 1M+ users.

rany_ 3y ago

> Windows and Android… you end up paying somehow in the end anyway I'm not sure why I have to mention this, but you could be paying for something and get screwed over at the same time. The issue isn't that Google/Microsoft/etc NEED to make money this way, but that this is legal to do. Also, Windows isn't exactly cheap and I personally couldn't fathom paying more than 100 bucks for an OS and still get treated like crap. I'm sure Android at best only makes 10 bucks from their users with their current model throughout the device's entire lifetime.

ribosometronome 3y ago
>I'm sure Android at best only makes 10 bucks from their users with their current model throughout the device's entire lifetime. I'm pretty sure Google pays Apple more than $10 per year per iPhone user to be the default search on iPhones and Mac. They were paying 18 billion back in 2021. I don't think Apple's marketshare is over 1.8 billion active users yet. Do you think Apple users are just that much more valuable to have searching?
- amaranth 3y ago
  According to [1] the estimated number of iPhone users (leaving out any Mac users) in 2024 is 1.46 billion. [1] https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/number-of-iphone-users https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/number-of-iphone-users

ankit219 3y ago

> So what are we left with? Gaming apps. A huge majority of Apple's revenue (from IAP) came from gaming purchases. This would continue to be the case. A gaming app would have ads + options for purchases (none can survive without it) and Apple now earns both on downloads and IAPs. Many games cross the 1M threshold once they are popular enough. Gaming apps have low retention, and a power curve in paying users.

kaba0 3y ago
And? Other’s shitty shady app store would never have been a good thing - now it is just gonna be financially disincentivized.
- eptcyka 3y ago
  As someone trying to contribute to an open source iOS app, an app store that doesn't require me to pay money to use the NFC entitlement, muck about changing bundle IDs to be able to build an open source app and run it on my own device, or build an app that I can use for longer than 7 days without publishing to an app store, I take issue with your framing of other app stores. The original app store is already shitty, this legislation will make it not worse, but it will not be the solution to my personal woes with the shitty app store.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Nonprofits are explicitly exempted from the fees. An fdroid like app store seems quite possible.
    - simfree 3y ago
      Not with the Core Technology Fee, nor with the Apple app review process standing in the way. These are severe restrictions that prevent something like FDroid from being operated on iOS.
    - eptcyka 3y ago
      I’d still need to get Apple’s approval to use NFC in an app I’d want to deploy on the non-existent fdroid analogue. I’d still need to pay for that.

gamblor956 3y ago

But look at Windows and Android… you end up paying somehow in the end anyway. Microsoft updates Windows OS for longer than Apple updates MacOS or iOS, despite charging a one-time fee that most end-users don't pay themselves. And is backwards compatible. And works with 99.999999% of the computer hardware ever made. It seems like with Apple, you're just paying for a lot of nothing.

octacat 3y ago
And works with 99.999999% - not true with Win 11.
pharmakom 3y ago
I once would have agreed with you, but the advertisements and pushiness in Windows are simply unacceptable at this point.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  The EU is fixing that as well - we'll soon see the privacy version of Win 11 launched in the EU as well.
  - filoleg 3y ago
    That's cool and all, but I either can wait for that to happen or not happen (which is not a certainty), or I can just use macOS (or a flavor of Linux). Sure, the EU will fix things like they've managed to do in the past with other internet-related stuff (e.g., cookie notices). And I will definitely re-evaluate this take once things change in terms of ads for Windows. But until that happens, I don't see "the EU will fix that" as a valid point in favor of Windows.
    - Kipters 3y ago
      The ability to disable the "news" panel is already in preview, it will be released by march https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/windows-11-widgets-will-finally-become-usable-thanks-to-an-upcoming-update https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/wind...

daemonologist 3y ago

Do you need to be an "official" nonprofit, or is it sufficient just to have an app which generates no revenue? If the former, how difficult/expensive is that in the EU?

markus92 3y ago
Depends on the country, but in The Netherlands it’s around 500ish to set up a Stichting (foundation) plus some annual fees.
- thejsa 3y ago
  The main obstacle I see is the €1mm letter of credit, to be honest.
kaba0 3y ago
You only need a single nonprofit that creates an F-Droid alternative, and then it can distribute other’s open-source projects freely
- FateOfNations 3y ago
  Yeah, the non-profit organization requirement is insurance for Apple that you aren't making money off your app some other way. Yeah, it's inconvenient for people who legitimately want to give stuff away for fun, but it isn't an insurmountable obstacle.

makeitdouble 3y ago

I wouldn't call that "fairly easy" in most senses of the term. For instance I didn't even have an idea of what's required in my place to get recognized as non-profit. And it turns out it's specific to each region, and I need to go ask for the paperwork in the first place. If the requirement is really a non profit legal status, Apple just raised the bar from "apps that just make no money" to "apps that registered to their local governing bodies that they have a goal of not making money", and that's a huge leap with a crazy high barrier for a random dev (imagine a kid in uni) to push a free app.

throwaway290 3y ago
"Don't have an idea" does not mean "difficult".
prpl 3y ago
In the academic/semi-governmental, it was often easier to set up a non-profit in the US and get things for free (e.g. Slack) than to figure out how to do billing for them in a rigid system that wants POs
FateOfNations 3y ago
Here in the US at least we have the concept of "fiscal sponsorship" in the non-profit space. A registered non-profit organization acts as sponsor for smaller groups and projects. The activities still have to be compliant, but the small groups don't have to go through the expense of setting up a free-standing organization. The Linux Foundation does this for quite a few open source software projects, for example. This is likely a good model for open source apps in this situation.
- xyzzy_plugh 3y ago
  Sure... but you can't just "join" the Linux Foundation on a whim. I'd almost argue it's easier to form a non-profit entity that become sponsored by a non-profit organization such as TLF. This almost reinforces the parent's point.
  - 3y ago

johnnyanmac 3y ago

>We don’t pay for OS explicitly anymore. But look at Windows and Android… you end up paying somehow in the end anyway. MS, you pay one time for the OS. Android you technically don't need to pay at all if you go AOSP. Both still require hardware to support the OS, though. >And no. Paying for the phone is not a viable way to pay for the OS. That incentives the phone maker to ditch OS updates for old phones. They do that anyway. mobile support is much lower than desktop which tends to guarantee a decade or so. And it's not like IOS is licensing out to other OEMs anyway.

evilduck 3y ago
In Windows you pay every time you open start menu and get blasted with tabloid news, ads and paid article placements. Or you pay in your time (again and again) turning it off each H2 update.
- Semaphor 3y ago
  I turned it off once and that was it.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  People say this but I just turned off a lot of that at the beginning. I generally do clean installs so I never worry about bloatware and I use Everything (void tools) to search because yes, Windows search just sucks somewhere around the middle of Windows 10. I don't doubt the ads are there but I avoid them easily enough. Fortunately I get the option to get around that stuff, unlike Apple's environments.

riwsky 3y ago

> Paying for the phone is not a viable way to pay for the OS. That incentives the phone maker to ditch OS updates for old phones. Huh? That is Apple’s model, and iOS supports old hardware much longer than Android does.

throwaway290 3y ago
We paid for the OS with commission fees from sales and IAP, that's what GP meant I think If next phone prices go up (especially in EU) after this then maybe it is true?