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What costs that are rolled into Apple’s 30% are you saving on? Payment processing is let’s say 3% (including chargebacks). Delivering updates is just pushing b

What costs that are rolled into Apple’s 30% are you saving on? Payment processing is let’s say 3% (including chargebacks). Delivering updates is just pushing bits, practically zero. What else are they doing? If Apple features you, then I guess it’s pretty fair to say you’ve paid a marketing expense, but they feature a tiny percent of apps. Most of us get nothing but buried in the app store. 30% is a lot.

threeseed 3y ago
> What else are they doing? The exact same thing Epic is doing with their games engines. Building and supporting the SDKs that developers use to make money.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  Yes, and Epic charges a lot less for their support. We say how Unity was eviscerated for a much cheaper runtime fee, I can't imagine Apple gets away with triple the pricing.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    The SDKs that Apple provides are far broader and more lucrative than Epic's game engine.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      Is it? Epic doesn't only provide and engine to make a game with. Online services, access to extremely high fidelity assets (meta human, Quixel megascans), photogrammetry. And of course it's working on its own store. All of these have a lower cut even if you don't negotiate.
- qwytw 3y ago
  > Building and supporting the SDKs that developers use to make money. You're implying that this is a somehow onesides transaction and Apple is doing developers a favour while Apple always needed third party developers as much as developers need them (with iOS of course this balance changed a bit which allowed Apple to become a lot more exploitative than they were before/still are if we're talking about macOS)
DrBenCarson 3y ago
Maintaining a high trust ecosystem is worth a LOT https://9to5mac.com/2023/09/06/iphone-users-spend-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/09/06/iphone-users-spend-apps/
- stefan_ 3y ago
  Nothing quite says "high trust ecosystem" as when the people charging you 30% also make a buck on top from competitors putting their app in front of customers looking for your app by name.
  - kridsdale1 3y ago
    999 million users don’t give a hoot about that. At all.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      That said, a number of regulatory bodies found some things to say.
losvedir 3y ago
I'm not the person you responded to, but I'd also include stuff like developing the APIs developers use, Swift and SwiftUI, Xcode, developer docs, etc. Basically everything that Apple does that makes it possible for a developer to produce a high quality app on their phone. Apple has to pay for all that somehow, and that revenue has to come from somewhere. Product sales are one place, but it's a one time purchase and so there's even less incentive to support old phones. Charging per app install is a pretty easy way to do it, aligns the incentives decently well, and a cost to the developer proportional to how much users/benefit they get. They could also just charge a large cost for access to the SDK a la console systems, or not actually track the downloads but have a license agreement where you pay based on your user base like other ecosystems (Unity?).
- qwytw 3y ago
  > Apple does that makes it possible for a developer to produce a high quality app on their phone This is not one sided at all. Historically generally Apple benefited more from developers releasing apps on their platforms than the other way around. Arguably that's still the case. > Apple has to pay for all that somehow So by selling devices? How did they pay for developing OSX/macOS and their APIs and tools for decades? > They could also just charge a large cost for access to the SDK a la console systems, There are many exploitative and unfair things they could do because of their dominant positions in the market, yes that's correct.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > So by selling devices? How did they pay for developing OSX/macOS and their APIs and tools for decades? Badly. They very nearly went bankrupt with that model.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      > Badly. They very nearly went bankrupt with that model. Like between 2000 and 2007? They did just fine, just like macOS is perfectly fine now.
nodamage 3y ago
The primary purpose of the 30% fee is not payment processing or delivering updates, it is the licensing fee for the use of Apple's intellectual property (SDKs and developer tools).
- guax 3y ago
  The primary purpose of the 30% is to get 30% of money. If apple could get away with 60 they would. Apple more than pays for the SDK development just with their cut of child casino apps they sell. Everything else is just free cash.
  - nodamage 3y ago
    And? You can say the same about pretty much anyone that sells anything. Why does a restaurant charge $15 for a cocktail that costs them 50 cents to make?

threeseed 3y ago

> What else are they doing? The exact same thing Epic is doing with their games engines. Building and supporting the SDKs that developers use to make money.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
Yes, and Epic charges a lot less for their support. We say how Unity was eviscerated for a much cheaper runtime fee, I can't imagine Apple gets away with triple the pricing.
- threeseed 3y ago
  The SDKs that Apple provides are far broader and more lucrative than Epic's game engine.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    Is it? Epic doesn't only provide and engine to make a game with. Online services, access to extremely high fidelity assets (meta human, Quixel megascans), photogrammetry. And of course it's working on its own store. All of these have a lower cut even if you don't negotiate.
qwytw 3y ago
> Building and supporting the SDKs that developers use to make money. You're implying that this is a somehow onesides transaction and Apple is doing developers a favour while Apple always needed third party developers as much as developers need them (with iOS of course this balance changed a bit which allowed Apple to become a lot more exploitative than they were before/still are if we're talking about macOS)

DrBenCarson 3y ago

Maintaining a high trust ecosystem is worth a LOT https://9to5mac.com/2023/09/06/iphone-users-spend-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/09/06/iphone-users-spend-apps/

stefan_ 3y ago
Nothing quite says "high trust ecosystem" as when the people charging you 30% also make a buck on top from competitors putting their app in front of customers looking for your app by name.
- kridsdale1 3y ago
  999 million users don’t give a hoot about that. At all.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    That said, a number of regulatory bodies found some things to say.

losvedir 3y ago

I'm not the person you responded to, but I'd also include stuff like developing the APIs developers use, Swift and SwiftUI, Xcode, developer docs, etc. Basically everything that Apple does that makes it possible for a developer to produce a high quality app on their phone. Apple has to pay for all that somehow, and that revenue has to come from somewhere. Product sales are one place, but it's a one time purchase and so there's even less incentive to support old phones. Charging per app install is a pretty easy way to do it, aligns the incentives decently well, and a cost to the developer proportional to how much users/benefit they get. They could also just charge a large cost for access to the SDK a la console systems, or not actually track the downloads but have a license agreement where you pay based on your user base like other ecosystems (Unity?).

qwytw 3y ago
> Apple does that makes it possible for a developer to produce a high quality app on their phone This is not one sided at all. Historically generally Apple benefited more from developers releasing apps on their platforms than the other way around. Arguably that's still the case. > Apple has to pay for all that somehow So by selling devices? How did they pay for developing OSX/macOS and their APIs and tools for decades? > They could also just charge a large cost for access to the SDK a la console systems, There are many exploitative and unfair things they could do because of their dominant positions in the market, yes that's correct.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > So by selling devices? How did they pay for developing OSX/macOS and their APIs and tools for decades? Badly. They very nearly went bankrupt with that model.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    > Badly. They very nearly went bankrupt with that model. Like between 2000 and 2007? They did just fine, just like macOS is perfectly fine now.

nodamage 3y ago

The primary purpose of the 30% fee is not payment processing or delivering updates, it is the licensing fee for the use of Apple's intellectual property (SDKs and developer tools).

guax 3y ago
The primary purpose of the 30% is to get 30% of money. If apple could get away with 60 they would. Apple more than pays for the SDK development just with their cut of child casino apps they sell. Everything else is just free cash.
- nodamage 3y ago
  And? You can say the same about pretty much anyone that sells anything. Why does a restaurant charge $15 for a cocktail that costs them 50 cents to make?