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That is fine as an app store policy, but they also want to impose those requirements for apps outside the appstore. That is a problem, if I want to run a sketch

by Yujf 3y ago

That is fine as an app store policy, but they also want to impose those requirements for apps outside the appstore. That is a problem, if I want to run a sketchy browser downloaded from github apple should not be able to prevent this

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
> That is a problem, if I want to run a sketchy browser downloaded from github apple should not be able to prevent this You can already do that today (yes, on iOS) by using your own developer-signing certificate (because if it's from github, you can build it from source; or re-link/assembly prebuilt linkable binaries if you really feel like it). Remember the vast, vast majority of iOS users are people like (I assume) our parents - or people we knew in the late-1990s/early-2000s with an excessive number of Internet Explorer toolbars and Bonzi Buddy. I support Apple's mission to keep crap like that off their platform, but Apple sleepwalked into prompting this regulation of their app-store because they weren't the good-stewards they said they'd be - so I'm ambivalent about the whole thing.
- Yujf 3y ago
  Tbh my mom doesn't even understand how to install an app from the app store. And she comes running for everything that she is not used to. I am not concerned that she would download anything from outside. But I do get your point that many people are incapable of evaluating what aoftware is trustworthy (and hell you cant always know there is a risk even with open source software that seems trustworthy unless you actually read all the source code, which I very rarely do and only for small programs or small parts of programs). However I do not think it is Apple's responsibility or right to be the guardian here.
- lelandbatey 3y ago
  > by using your own developer-signing certificate That still requires you to pay Apple for a developer account ($99 USD/year), requires you to own a Mac, and requires you to abide by all of Apple's rules. Meaning that Apple _can_ still prevent you from installing a sketchy browser downloaded from Github since they control everything about the build-and-signing system on the iPhone. https://developer.apple.com/help/account/create-certificates/create-developer-id-certificates/ https://developer.apple.com/help/account/create-certificates... https://developer.apple.com/support/certificates/ https://developer.apple.com/support/certificates/
  - kaba0 3y ago
    You don’t have to pay $100, but then your will have to re-sign it every seven or so days.
    - popcalc 3y ago
      Which even with AltStore is a pain, no?
- thejsa 3y ago
  > You can already do that today Not if you want to use a JIT compiler or multiprocess support
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > You can already do that today (yes, on iOS) by using your own developer-signing certificate (because if it's from github, you can build it from source; or re-link/assembly prebuilt linkable binaries if you really feel like it). Not if you want a browser with a JIT Javascript compiler, which for better or worse is a basic requirement for a broadly usable browser.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    You can actually enable JIT for a specific app for yourself. Nintendo emulators actually can make use of that, for several years now. It’s just a niche, so no one bothered porting a whole ass browser with its JIT compiler and GC and whatnot to ios for that 3 users. Now it can change.
    - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
      No, these emulators achieve JIT via a method intended for remotely debugging apps. AltStore has a way of automating this, but it requires an active server connection when the app is launched. In AltStore's case, this means you need to be on the same wifi network as the computer running AltServer. I don't know whether it would be theoretically possible to do this over WAN, but it definitely isn't practical at a large scale.
      - mcsniff 3y ago
        Might be possible to do using a VPN as long as you can get broadcast/multicast packets forwarded. Tailscale unfortunately doesn't support it...yet? https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/1013 https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/1013
        scheeseman486 3y ago
        You can't really be serious in suggesting that all of this is reasonable to run a full featured third party browser.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  The entitlements for browser development are almost certainly not going to be given out to people on the free tier and probably not even to all paid developer program accounts. Any entitlement that's available to free tier becomes something that you can sideload with AltStore, which works almost exactly as you suggest. They do the same thing with the VPN entitlement. If you want to filter network traffic on-device, you have to apply for it and identify yourself to Apple. If they didn't do this China would be banning iPhones left and right.
- Affric 3y ago
  I think this is pretty measured. A whole bunch of tech guys fundamentally don’t understand how naïve many users are and how hostile the environment is. What we need is a fundamentally different model for device security in our users. Their device is insecure and everything they might do online will expose them to an attacker. But that overturns 40 years of UI improvement so people can use their devices without thinking.

by Yujf 3y ago

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago

> That is a problem, if I want to run a sketchy browser downloaded from github apple should not be able to prevent this You can already do that today (yes, on iOS) by using your own developer-signing certificate (because if it's from github, you can build it from source; or re-link/assembly prebuilt linkable binaries if you really feel like it). Remember the vast, vast majority of iOS users are people like (I assume) our parents - or people we knew in the late-1990s/early-2000s with an excessive number of Internet Explorer toolbars and Bonzi Buddy. I support Apple's mission to keep crap like that off their platform, but Apple sleepwalked into prompting this regulation of their app-store because they weren't the good-stewards they said they'd be - so I'm ambivalent about the whole thing.

Yujf 3y ago
Tbh my mom doesn't even understand how to install an app from the app store. And she comes running for everything that she is not used to. I am not concerned that she would download anything from outside. But I do get your point that many people are incapable of evaluating what aoftware is trustworthy (and hell you cant always know there is a risk even with open source software that seems trustworthy unless you actually read all the source code, which I very rarely do and only for small programs or small parts of programs). However I do not think it is Apple's responsibility or right to be the guardian here.
lelandbatey 3y ago
> by using your own developer-signing certificate That still requires you to pay Apple for a developer account ($99 USD/year), requires you to own a Mac, and requires you to abide by all of Apple's rules. Meaning that Apple _can_ still prevent you from installing a sketchy browser downloaded from Github since they control everything about the build-and-signing system on the iPhone. https://developer.apple.com/help/account/create-certificates/create-developer-id-certificates/ https://developer.apple.com/help/account/create-certificates... https://developer.apple.com/support/certificates/ https://developer.apple.com/support/certificates/
- kaba0 3y ago
  You don’t have to pay $100, but then your will have to re-sign it every seven or so days.
  - popcalc 3y ago
    Which even with AltStore is a pain, no?
thejsa 3y ago
> You can already do that today Not if you want to use a JIT compiler or multiprocess support
Wowfunhappy 3y ago
> You can already do that today (yes, on iOS) by using your own developer-signing certificate (because if it's from github, you can build it from source; or re-link/assembly prebuilt linkable binaries if you really feel like it). Not if you want a browser with a JIT Javascript compiler, which for better or worse is a basic requirement for a broadly usable browser.
- kaba0 3y ago
  You can actually enable JIT for a specific app for yourself. Nintendo emulators actually can make use of that, for several years now. It’s just a niche, so no one bothered porting a whole ass browser with its JIT compiler and GC and whatnot to ios for that 3 users. Now it can change.
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    No, these emulators achieve JIT via a method intended for remotely debugging apps. AltStore has a way of automating this, but it requires an active server connection when the app is launched. In AltStore's case, this means you need to be on the same wifi network as the computer running AltServer. I don't know whether it would be theoretically possible to do this over WAN, but it definitely isn't practical at a large scale.
    - mcsniff 3y ago
      Might be possible to do using a VPN as long as you can get broadcast/multicast packets forwarded. Tailscale unfortunately doesn't support it...yet? https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/1013 https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/1013
      - scheeseman486 3y ago
        You can't really be serious in suggesting that all of this is reasonable to run a full featured third party browser.
kmeisthax 3y ago
The entitlements for browser development are almost certainly not going to be given out to people on the free tier and probably not even to all paid developer program accounts. Any entitlement that's available to free tier becomes something that you can sideload with AltStore, which works almost exactly as you suggest. They do the same thing with the VPN entitlement. If you want to filter network traffic on-device, you have to apply for it and identify yourself to Apple. If they didn't do this China would be banning iPhones left and right.
Affric 3y ago
I think this is pretty measured. A whole bunch of tech guys fundamentally don’t understand how naïve many users are and how hostile the environment is. What we need is a fundamentally different model for device security in our users. Their device is insecure and everything they might do online will expose them to an attacker. But that overturns 40 years of UI improvement so people can use their devices without thinking.