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Framework: We don't want to have to make a printer, but wow
- onyxringer 3y agoThere's already Brother, and fingers-crossed they will keep doing good job. Please don't get distracted, Framework. What you're trying to do is challenging enough already. Notably people will keep saying in every thread about HP that Brother exists, and I don't think Brother is dominating the market. At the end of the day if a ignorant customers keep buying garbage products, it's hard to help.
- offsky 3y agoMy brother laser worked great for years. Then I decided to save money and get generic toner. A week later my brother printer bricked itself. It won’t even turn on. Probably a coincidence, but still makes me angry.
- bestouff 3y agoCoincidence. Mine has used generic toner for nearly 2 decades.
- jdboyd 3y agoI don't know if this is part of some enshittifying or not, but at first my Brother MFC inkjet (purchased 2021) just worked. But then sometime last year I stopped being able to print from iOS or Android mobile devices and also started having to remove the drivers and reinstall them over and over on both Linux and Windows (and even sometimes macOS). My printer has has a fixed IP from the beginning, and I don't know what is changing, but it is really peaving me. I also was never able to get it scan to a SMB server either. At this point I starting to think of going with an Epson ecotank inkjet as my understanding is those don't enforce getting Epson ink. In the old days a printer might have a part break or wear out, but I never used to run into weird seemingly software problems after the first 2 years of use like I did with this and the Samsung before it.
- tyleo 3y agoFunny, I literally left a comment promoting Brother as you left this one. You speak the truth. :)
- MostlyStable 3y agoBrother is enshittifying. They locked out non-OEM cartridges a year and change ago. Their hardware is good (for now), but their software practices are already to the point where I would instantly buy a Framework option and sell my current brother printer.
- MostlyStable 3y agoEven though it is now more than a year since Brother did this, the vast majority of the comments about them are overwhelmingly positive, despite cartridge antics being the majority of the reason why people hate HP printers and others. I wonder how long it will take for their current status to fully penetrate the good will they built up from years of being the not-shitty option.
- resoluteteeth 3y agoI think it will take a while for people to notice because Brother printers last so long, so most of the people praising them are using still printers they bought many years ago.
- happymellon 3y agoMy Brother laser must be approaching 10 years, and so from my experience I would completely recommend them. However if they are really turning HP I could never recommend with a good conscious. This is conflicting.
- MostlyStable 3y agoYeah, I have an extremely sour taste in my mouth about them because their firmware update (which I didn't approve), disabled my non-OEM cartidge when it was only partway through. Unfortunately, from an objective standpoint, I'm not sure there is anyone better to recommend. At least we can say that Brothers hardware is good and that, for the most part, it just works when trying to print. I've vertainly never had any issues with it _other_ than them forcing me to swap the DRM chip from my empty starter cartridge into my replacement non-OEM one (and, the fact that this is possible is a sort of half-mark in their favor? I guess?) It's a shitty situation where I'd rather buy from a company that didn't do this but the entire product segment is so bad that I don't think it exists.
- cyanydeez 3y agothey're not ignorant, they're rich. _they dont need to discern a difference, money is all they need._
- tyleo 3y agoNo one should buy HP printers anymore when there are much better options. I personally recommend Brother.
- Gys 3y agoThere are alternatives already?
- dotcoma 3y agoI’d buy one from them!
- lnxg33k1 3y agoIt’s saddening that we still need printers at all
- unshavedyak 3y agoI actually really like them. At least for when i need one and i don't have it setup, or whatever. Though really i can't believe it hasn't improved drastically.
- mouse_ 3y agoI don't think so. There will always be a place for physical media.
- ksd482 3y agoAre you implying usage of paper is saddening? I don't think we'll ever get rid of that but I am sure we can achieve sustainability with paper usage.
- em-bee 3y agoi haven't needed to own a printer for decades. the rare cases where i did need a printer, i could go to a printshop. happens once a year at the most.
- timbit42 3y agoThis is what I've been thinking ever since I bought my first printer in 1988.
- berbec 3y agoI fondly remember the noise my 4201 [1] made as it's 9 pins flew across the form-feed paper at nearly 200 characters per second, in draft mode! 1: https://www.homecomputermuseum.nl/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/ProPrinter.jpg https://www.homecomputermuseum.nl/wp-content/uploads/2021/04...
- jeffrallen 3y agoFramework should buy Brother. Or the other way around. Imagine a Framework sewing machine? Or an CNC-embroidery machine with a 3d printing attachment? Or a printer you can repair and fill with ink yourself? Or a printer where you get to choose a Centronics port and install it yourself? The mind boggles at the possibilities.
- hsuduebc2 3y agoI'm waiting for a day when toilet's would be subscription based.
- moondev 3y agoOn the topic of new framework products, would be cool to see their take on a rackmount server. Instead of usb-c modules they would be front facing pcie 5.0 modules with all kinds of Ethernet, infiniband, DPU, GPU, NVME and IPMI options
- kmeisthax 3y agoI recently wondered if you could make a blade server chassis out of old laptop motherboards this way. You could have an Ethernet switch in the backplane that is exposed to each slot as a USB Ethernet dongle.
- nine_k 3y agoWhat would be the target market? How many people hot-plug PCIe devices?
- justinclift 3y agoSounds like it'd be useful for homelabs and (maybe) people that do bench testing of components professionally.
- RedShift1 3y agoJust don't print anymore?
- QuadrupleA 3y agoThat's my approach :). I have a brother laser that's great, but only print maybe once a month.
- abeppu 3y agoWhy are there not a bunch of cheap no-name printers from overseas companies happy to just make the sale without the subscription? Are they really hard to make? Is there not the right ecosystem of components? Is there somehow more enforceable IP around printers than around other consumer electronics? It's weird to me that I can get a cheap smart watch/drone/noise cancelling heaphones/android phone or tablet/compact projector from companies I've never heard of, and who aren't trying to get me on a monthly subscription -- but not a printer.
- StevenWaterman 3y agoA cheap no-name printer would be more expensive than all the name brands because the name brands sell at a loss so they can make a profit on ink
- em-bee 3y agodecades ago a friend of mine was running out of ink on his printer. he then discovered that buying a new printer with ink was cheaper than buying ink for the old printer. this practice should be made illegal through environment protection laws
- happymellon 3y agoQuite often this is not actually true, the ink cartridges that are bundles have less ink than new cartridges. But everything is misleading to make you spend more money, so who knows anymore.
- em-bee 3y agotrue, my friend may as well have been duped by exactly that. or it was a special sale. it's just a memory of an experience that is forever tied to this topic.
- theshrike79 3y agoExcept when you don't use it that much and the actual big cartridges just dry out. I actually bought three of the same shitty Canon scanner/inkjet combos in a row when I ran out of ink. Then I came to my senses and got a Brother laser.
- nightowl_games 3y agoWhy hasn't apple made a printer?
- savrajsingh 3y agoImageWriter II fam unite!
- jagger27 3y agoI assume this is a joke, but they did, and it is beloved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserWriter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserWriter
- nightowl_games 3y agoWasn't a joke..that was before my time
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- marssaxman 3y agoApple has made many printers, but apparently no longer considers the sector worthwhile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apple_printers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apple_printers
- miah_ 3y agoI really want Framework to make a printer, actually it doesn't have to be Framework but a company with a similar model and goals would be great. The printer industry needs a swift smack upside the head. Its totally awful. Yes I love my Brother, but I'm keeping my eyes open for a good OkiData linefeed printer. Those things are tanks and their ink lasts forever.
- nine_k 3y agoActually if Framework just reused some white-label printing engine, with known characteristics, spare parts, and cartridges, that could already be great. It would mean no cartridge shenanigans, and likely better and open firmware. And yes, internal USB ports for modular network interfaces and such :) I'm afraid it's going to be pretty expensive though. Many printers are essentially subsidized by purchases of toner and ink.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- kmeisthax 3y agoIsn't pretty much all viable printer technology encumbered by evergreen patents? My understanding was that printer companies think they're enforcing patents with DRM, which is why they tried so hard to make refilling ink cartridges a DMCA 1201 violation.
- Gualdrapo 3y agoIf anyone of the Framework folks is around here - Please, consider doing a TV.
- vaylian 3y agoI'm not from Framework, but can you be more specific? And maybe you don't need a better TV but just a better TV screen that can be connected to a computer?
- dangets 3y agoThe basics: Good picture quality & resolution (e.g. LG panel), no (or replaceable) smart features, no forced ads / tracking, fast startup, wide variety of inputs would be bonus though the usual options are fine. I'm less imaginative around would-be-cool features. If there was an integrated, hackable linux computer you could do many more things like photo frame, weather, (privacy respecting) smart home controls, media server, etc.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago> no (or replaceable) smart features, no forced ads / tracking, fast startup I have a TV that takes a few seconds to boot to a screen that says I need to agree to some demands in order to see advertisements. Fortunately, there has yet to be a software update that's so heavy-handed that I can't use the built-in chromecast without agreeing to their demands. I am really rather glad it was a gift so I won't feel bad trashing it when the time comes. It makes me appreciate how nice a dumb TV is when it's connected to a smart computer and also how important it is to provide the computer myself.
- KerrAvon 3y agoPro Tip: if you buy an LG OLED and never connect it to the internet, you have the best of both worlds: beautiful picture and no smart features / ads.
- MostlyStable 3y agoI just plug my TV into a media PC with a TV tuner card. I don't let the TV connect to my network, and I treat it as a dumb display. No clue how repairable it is (almost certainly not at all), but it's lasted more than five years so far and I'm happy with it as is. I agree that the smart features are bad, but it's at least still easy to just avoid them. Although I'll admit to not having a great solution to input/control. I currently just use a wireless mouse and keyboard, but that's less than optimal in a living room situation.
- tomovo 3y agoPlease do and make printer refills a commodity, like paper.
- Zufriedenheit 3y agoWe had a HP Printer for a long time and it was a nightmare. After it broke down, i noticed that Epson was the first company to make a printer with ink tanks, while the others where still arguing that its not possible because the ink would dry out. I figured this must be the least evil printer company then. It's been working fine for now. Also no need to buy third party ink because the original is reasonably priced. By now the others also offer printers with tanks.
- microtonal 3y agoI can't speak for the longer-term reliability, but we have an Epson Ecotank which you literally fill with ink from a bottle (no cartridges). It was more expensive than other Inkjet printers (since they don't sell them at a loss and profit from cartridges), but ours has been humming along for two or three years. We got an extra set of CMYK bottles, but we haven't had to refill it yet (fairly large reservoirs).
- vaylian 3y agoI would be interested in a printer that doesn't do tracking dots[1] and that supports reasonable ink refills. And it would be really cool if I could just take it apart Framework-style to fix any issues that occur. [1] https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-d...
- 7e 3y agoCan someone summarize the Framework value proposition? Is it for tinkerers, or people who can't afford to buy an entirely new laptop every three years?
- vaylian 3y agoIt's for people who rely heavily on their computer. If something is broken, you want it to be fixed asap. The best way to achieve this is if you can DIY. It's also a good long-term investment, because you can upgrade the hardware. > or people who can't afford to buy an entirely new laptop every three years? A laptop should really be useful for longer than 3 years.
- MostlyStable 3y agoYeah, although price/cost is another thing I noticed in a lot of the reviews for the 16 that dropped yesterday. They made a point that the Framework is generally more expensive for similar performance than competitors, which is true! But in the 13, upgrading to a new mainboard with a new CPU was ~half the cost of buying fresh. So, if in 3-5 years when the user decides they need an upgrade, they don't _need_ to buy an entire laptop, just a new mainboard. It seems to me that even a single upgrade cycle like this brings the cost at _least_ to parity, if not cheaper than competitors.
- em-bee 3y agothis. i was very close to consider buying a a laptop with a soldered SSD because low weight is a critical feature for me , but then i realized that a similar model with replaceable SSD almost had the same low weight, and so i chose that, and i am glad i did. only a year later i needed to replace the SSD with one twice as large. worse. the old SSD also showed signs of failing for unknown reasons. warranty would probably have covered it, but getting that would have been a hassle and without a working laptop until it was fixed, and i needed more space anyways. i'd rather have warranty on individual components that are expensive (like the motherboard) and spend some money to replace smaller parts than waiting for a fix.
- 7e 3y agoIf I need a laptop ASAP, I would buy a MacBook Pro and use Time Machine to back it up continuously. Then I would pick up a used MacBook Air for $700 to keep as a spare. If you can’t afford to be without a laptop for a few days, you can afford that expenditure, most likely. Or, if one wishes to self insure, maintain only one laptop and buy another one at the Apple Store the same day yours breaks. Sell the old one back to Apple once it is repaired. Slightly more expensive, but you can defer the cost until the event. Always backup continuously.
- beej71 3y agoI'd pay $500 for a black-and-white laser printer that I owned, was subscription-free, and was cheap and easy to service. I don't know where this falls in production costs, though.
- blacksmith_tb 3y agoI've had a Xerox B210 monochrome laser printer for a few years, other than a little hassle getting networking configured, it's been solid.
- slotrans 3y agobuy an HP 4M or similar on eBay they're slow but they are super reliable, last forever, and don't have any garbage software
- MostlyStable 3y agoI'd prefer it to have an integrated scanner as well, but I'd also be on board to pay that much, and if it didn't have the scanner, I could just get a stand alone one I suppose.
- BadBadJellyBean 3y agoI bought a used Lexmark MX611dhe for a 100€. I think it satisfies all the things above. I'd say look out for used office printers.
- wmf 3y agoYou can get that for around $120 new.
- ryathal 3y agoMost people can probably survive just fine with no printer and just rely on Libraries, Staples, FedEx, UPS, etc.
- JohnFen 3y agoSure, and most people do. However, for the rest of us, a printer is pretty important.
- drewcoo 3y agoIf anyone had told me in the 80s that Hewlett Packard, the coolest place for an engineer to work, would turn into Gillette, I would not have believed it. That said, I don't think building a "better" unprofitable, archaic device is good business, Framework.
- throwaway81523 3y agoThe situation with monochrome laser printers is not too bad. People keep saying Brother (and I have one myself) but HP laserjets from the 1990s are still viable and built like tanks. Color is different and I don't know a good answer. Ink jets inherently suck for low volume users because the ink dries out. Dot matrix impact still exists but is heavy duty now. The cheap home and compact models are gone. Also, afaict, no more small thermal printers except for receipt printers. But I might look around more. Anyone know a good site to look for this stuff?
- taftster 3y agoThe parallels of the printer industry and the smart TV industry are striking to me. The cost of a consumer smart TV has moved towards being subsidized by selling ads and watch history to media companies. Most consumers expect their flat screen high resolution 80" TV to cost less than $1000; there's even some choices in the $400-500 range now. Samsung (et al) need the recurring ad revenue (they say) to keep the lights on and provide continued products. They rightfully believe the market won't exist for the sustainable cost of the TV set, maybe in the multiple thousand price range, without the ad/viewership revenue. I think HP is facing this same problem. People won't buy a multiple thousands dollar printer. The market has driven the price down, such that HP needs to capture recurring revenue from its consumers. Without it, the retail price of printers would end up being much higher, likely out of reach for common consumers. I think the blame for this lies more with consumers than with manufacturers. I'm not stump speeching for HP; if anything, they have been my bane from previous days of being a local system administrator maintaining a fleet of printers for an engineering firm. And yes, corporate greed, perceived shareholder needs, and CxO salaries have led to these conditions too. Ultimately I just wish there were some good market choices here for normal consumers. I don't want to buy the "business" version of a printer anymore than I want to buy the business version of a smart TV display. But I wish there was a model where we didn't have to shell out for expensive HP toner just to have a decent printer on a subscription model. Like it or not, I think the subscription model is only in the beginning phases. You're not going to own anything in the future.
- justinclift 3y ago> They rightfully believe ... There doesn't seem to be any evidence for this though. People are now having to use (more expensive) workarounds in order to have a TV that doesn't monetise them. eg large monitor + dedicated tv appliance / pc, using a commercial display, etc.
- justinclift 3y agohttps://nitter.cz/FrameworkPuter/status/1750545558765519344 https://nitter.cz/FrameworkPuter/status/1750545558765519344 (note that it's nitter.cz not nitter.net due to the .net one showing a message about being rate limited)