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There is significant cost associated with complying with the ever increasing demands of the EU. I have seen this personally. It makes sense that they have to re

There is significant cost associated with complying with the ever increasing demands of the EU. I have seen this personally. It makes sense that they have to recuperate this somehow.

asow92 3y ago
Many of the companies I work with have completely given up on operating in the EU because of this. edit: Why downvote me for stating a matter of fact?
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  Yup. I got asked to block anyone from the EU from using a specific university software. Hope you’re not an exchange student on holiday! Fortunately, they aren’t in business anymore. (For unrelated reasons.)
- cynicalsecurity 3y ago
  This is good. An app that can't survive without stealing your private data isn't worthy to be on the European market.
  - switch007 3y ago
    You’re happy with only large tech giants existing then. Because lots of regulations are just barriers to entry and allow the existing players to keep playing
    - asow92 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - hnlmorg 3y ago
      The problem is the same argument also works in reverse: few regulations just make it easier for larger players to block smaller players from operating via dishonest business practices. Ultimately existing players always have the advantage. As a side note: the startup world is thriving in Europe. So EU regulations can’t be that high of a barrier ;)
      - asow92 3y ago
        Personally, I don't think this works in real life. Consumers catch on to dishonest business practices and want choose new market options if/when they becomes available, and do not need a nanny state to pick winners and losers. If anything, excessive regulation and legal hurdles impede and prevent this market force from working as it should. Internet providers in the US are a perfect example of this in action: why would these virtual monopolies want to provide a better product if it's so hard for competition to materialize? They are incentivized to offer a less than ideal product while also lobbying for increased or maintained regulation to ensure the status quo. This isn't capitalism, but cronyism. Also, which startups are thriving in Europe with global appeal? Genuinely, un-sarcastically, curious.
        hnlmorg 3y ago
        > Consumers catch on to dishonest business practices and want choose new market options if/when they becomes available, That almost never happens > Internet providers in the US are a perfect example of this in action: why would these virtual monopolies want to provide a better product if it's so hard for competition to materialize? Infrastructure costs is why you don’t see hundreds of competitors. New companies either need the capital to build new infrastructure, in which case they are usually more expensive due to economies of scale, or they have to resell someone else’s infrastructure. In which case they can only be as good as the monopolies. The ironic thing is in the UK there aren’t any monopolies in ISP. There is lots of healthy competition. So your example regarding deregulation proves the opposite of your point.
        asow92 3y ago
        > That almost never happens I beg to differ. https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/08/28/undercharged-iphone-14-owners-complain-about-lower-battery-endurance https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/08/28/undercharged-ipho... https://www.reddit.com/r/Spectrum/comments/ln0id2/spectrum_lies_violations_and_fraud/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Spectrum/comments/ln0id2/spectrum_l... https://www.thisoldhouse.com/home-finances/reviews/worst-home-warranty-companies https://www.thisoldhouse.com/home-finances/reviews/worst-hom... https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/13/23637401/samsung-fake-moon-photos-ai-galaxy-s21-s23-ultra https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/13/23637401/samsung-fake-moo... https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/02/01/bad-reputation-americas-top-20-most-hated-companies/1058718001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/02/01/bad...
  - asow92 3y ago
    It's not like these companies are trying to steal your private data. They just don't see working through legal compliance as worth the squeeze — especially when they are young and don't have the resources to comply properly. edit: > worthy of the European market. Also, what an entitled, elitist thing to say. Maybe the US would be better off pulling out of Nato and letting Europe alone after all.
    - cynicalsecurity 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - asow92 3y ago
        It’s okay, I forgive you.
  - throw10920 3y ago
    I think you responded to the wrong comment by accident, because nowhere did the parent user say that the companies they worked with were trying to take users' data, or had trouble with privacy-related EU law. Don't forget to double-check to make sure you're responding to the right comment!
- babypuncher 3y ago
  If you're company cannot subsist without stealing user data then it does not deserve to survive at all.
  - asow92 3y ago
    That's not what I said. Some of these companies are non-profits that have nothing to do with the EU or ads at all, but are blocking EU users.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      How is the EU blocking non-profits from operating there?
      - asow92 3y ago
        This is from a US small non-profit, and small for-profit operating with way less than $1M in funding, and not necessarily intending to deal with people in the EU context: Not every company has money to pay for the hours to ensure they are GDPR compliant, so they opt out of serving EU clients altogether. It's not always a problem forever, but it's definitely a blocker sometimes.
        donkeybeer 3y ago
        What does your app or website do that its having trouble complying with GDPR?
        asow92 3y ago
        That’s the thing: when I come onto a project they might not even know, nor have the hours to allocate to figure it out, and I ain’t working for free to figure it out.
        donkeybeer 3y ago
        What was your app trying to do? Be clear. If for example its just an information website with static content and its putting cookies on the users device, its a you problem, not a EU problem.
realusername 3y ago
Those are just basic things which should have been implemented 10 years ago though. The fact the EU had to push laws for that is a bit shameful.
sph 3y ago
Apple is never gonna financially recover from these impossible demands. Come on now, that is utter nonsense. Apple has simply found a way to make even more money out of what seemed like a bad deal for them. They are not recuperating anything, they are increasing revenue.
- buzzert 3y ago
  > Apple is never gonna financially recover from these impossible demands. That's not at all what I said. These regulations are increasing the cost of business in the EU. I'd much rather have those costs paid by those who democratically (?) decided these regulations that those in other countries who decided otherwise.
  - waffleiron 3y ago
    Apple isn’t forced to do business here, I much rather have large corporations that engage in rent seeking behaviour paying the costs.
AlanYx 3y ago
Europe has a fairly blase attitude towards compliance costs in general. For example, the official EC report on the cost impact of the EU AI Act finds that, for businesses who already have a Quality Management System (QMS), "An enterprise employing 50 persons would pay roughly EUR 159,000-EUR 202,000 for upgrading and maintaining the QMS, and bringing one AI product to market." (Notably, that estimate excludes costs of legal review.) Around 200000 EUR for one product making use of AI would be seen as a heavy burden on startups and small enterprises in much of the world, but as far as I can tell, it's considered not particularly noteworthy by the EC. Apple's cost structure announced today probably needs to be assessed in that context. Tech companies doing business in Europe are already used to various additional compliance-related costs of doing business.
pachorizons 3y ago
Apple chooses this level of control for the iOS store. Being told your previous version was illegal doesn't entitle you to recoup the costs of compliance.
- kj99 3y ago
  The previous version was never illegal, and Apple isn’t being punished. The EU created a new set of rules and Apple is complying.
  - buzzert 3y ago
    The use of language here, such as the word "illegal", is a psychological trick. It's an intentional conflation with past behavior/the status quo with being "immoral" (as illegal implies immoral).
    - kj99 3y ago
      Agreed. Ironically I’d say the use of manipulative language like that is much more of a moral problem that society is contending with.

There is significant cost associated with complying with the ever increasing demands of the EU. I have seen this personally. It makes sense that they have to recuperate this somehow.

asow92 3y ago

Many of the companies I work with have completely given up on operating in the EU because of this. edit: Why downvote me for stating a matter of fact?

kayodelycaon 3y ago
Yup. I got asked to block anyone from the EU from using a specific university software. Hope you’re not an exchange student on holiday! Fortunately, they aren’t in business anymore. (For unrelated reasons.)
cynicalsecurity 3y ago
This is good. An app that can't survive without stealing your private data isn't worthy to be on the European market.
- switch007 3y ago
  You’re happy with only large tech giants existing then. Because lots of regulations are just barriers to entry and allow the existing players to keep playing
  - asow92 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - hnlmorg 3y ago
    The problem is the same argument also works in reverse: few regulations just make it easier for larger players to block smaller players from operating via dishonest business practices. Ultimately existing players always have the advantage. As a side note: the startup world is thriving in Europe. So EU regulations can’t be that high of a barrier ;)
    - asow92 3y ago
      Personally, I don't think this works in real life. Consumers catch on to dishonest business practices and want choose new market options if/when they becomes available, and do not need a nanny state to pick winners and losers. If anything, excessive regulation and legal hurdles impede and prevent this market force from working as it should. Internet providers in the US are a perfect example of this in action: why would these virtual monopolies want to provide a better product if it's so hard for competition to materialize? They are incentivized to offer a less than ideal product while also lobbying for increased or maintained regulation to ensure the status quo. This isn't capitalism, but cronyism. Also, which startups are thriving in Europe with global appeal? Genuinely, un-sarcastically, curious.
      - hnlmorg 3y ago
        > Consumers catch on to dishonest business practices and want choose new market options if/when they becomes available, That almost never happens > Internet providers in the US are a perfect example of this in action: why would these virtual monopolies want to provide a better product if it's so hard for competition to materialize? Infrastructure costs is why you don’t see hundreds of competitors. New companies either need the capital to build new infrastructure, in which case they are usually more expensive due to economies of scale, or they have to resell someone else’s infrastructure. In which case they can only be as good as the monopolies. The ironic thing is in the UK there aren’t any monopolies in ISP. There is lots of healthy competition. So your example regarding deregulation proves the opposite of your point.
        asow92 3y ago
        > That almost never happens I beg to differ. https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/08/28/undercharged-iphone-14-owners-complain-about-lower-battery-endurance https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/08/28/undercharged-ipho... https://www.reddit.com/r/Spectrum/comments/ln0id2/spectrum_lies_violations_and_fraud/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Spectrum/comments/ln0id2/spectrum_l... https://www.thisoldhouse.com/home-finances/reviews/worst-home-warranty-companies https://www.thisoldhouse.com/home-finances/reviews/worst-hom... https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/13/23637401/samsung-fake-moon-photos-ai-galaxy-s21-s23-ultra https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/13/23637401/samsung-fake-moo... https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/02/01/bad-reputation-americas-top-20-most-hated-companies/1058718001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/02/01/bad...
- asow92 3y ago
  It's not like these companies are trying to steal your private data. They just don't see working through legal compliance as worth the squeeze — especially when they are young and don't have the resources to comply properly. edit: > worthy of the European market. Also, what an entitled, elitist thing to say. Maybe the US would be better off pulling out of Nato and letting Europe alone after all.
  - cynicalsecurity 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - asow92 3y ago
      It’s okay, I forgive you.
- throw10920 3y ago
  I think you responded to the wrong comment by accident, because nowhere did the parent user say that the companies they worked with were trying to take users' data, or had trouble with privacy-related EU law. Don't forget to double-check to make sure you're responding to the right comment!
babypuncher 3y ago
If you're company cannot subsist without stealing user data then it does not deserve to survive at all.
- asow92 3y ago
  That's not what I said. Some of these companies are non-profits that have nothing to do with the EU or ads at all, but are blocking EU users.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    How is the EU blocking non-profits from operating there?
    - asow92 3y ago
      This is from a US small non-profit, and small for-profit operating with way less than $1M in funding, and not necessarily intending to deal with people in the EU context: Not every company has money to pay for the hours to ensure they are GDPR compliant, so they opt out of serving EU clients altogether. It's not always a problem forever, but it's definitely a blocker sometimes.
      - donkeybeer 3y ago
        What does your app or website do that its having trouble complying with GDPR?
        asow92 3y ago
        That’s the thing: when I come onto a project they might not even know, nor have the hours to allocate to figure it out, and I ain’t working for free to figure it out.
        donkeybeer 3y ago
        What was your app trying to do? Be clear. If for example its just an information website with static content and its putting cookies on the users device, its a you problem, not a EU problem.

realusername 3y ago

Those are just basic things which should have been implemented 10 years ago though. The fact the EU had to push laws for that is a bit shameful.

sph 3y ago

Apple is never gonna financially recover from these impossible demands. Come on now, that is utter nonsense. Apple has simply found a way to make even more money out of what seemed like a bad deal for them. They are not recuperating anything, they are increasing revenue.

buzzert 3y ago
> Apple is never gonna financially recover from these impossible demands. That's not at all what I said. These regulations are increasing the cost of business in the EU. I'd much rather have those costs paid by those who democratically (?) decided these regulations that those in other countries who decided otherwise.
- waffleiron 3y ago
  Apple isn’t forced to do business here, I much rather have large corporations that engage in rent seeking behaviour paying the costs.

AlanYx 3y ago

Europe has a fairly blase attitude towards compliance costs in general. For example, the official EC report on the cost impact of the EU AI Act finds that, for businesses who already have a Quality Management System (QMS), "An enterprise employing 50 persons would pay roughly EUR 159,000-EUR 202,000 for upgrading and maintaining the QMS, and bringing one AI product to market." (Notably, that estimate excludes costs of legal review.) Around 200000 EUR for one product making use of AI would be seen as a heavy burden on startups and small enterprises in much of the world, but as far as I can tell, it's considered not particularly noteworthy by the EC. Apple's cost structure announced today probably needs to be assessed in that context. Tech companies doing business in Europe are already used to various additional compliance-related costs of doing business.

pachorizons 3y ago

Apple chooses this level of control for the iOS store. Being told your previous version was illegal doesn't entitle you to recoup the costs of compliance.

kj99 3y ago
The previous version was never illegal, and Apple isn’t being punished. The EU created a new set of rules and Apple is complying.
- buzzert 3y ago
  The use of language here, such as the word "illegal", is a psychological trick. It's an intentional conflation with past behavior/the status quo with being "immoral" (as illegal implies immoral).
  - kj99 3y ago
    Agreed. Ironically I’d say the use of manipulative language like that is much more of a moral problem that society is contending with.