5 ms·

I think it's common knowledge by now that the Hugo awards go to whatever is most politically expedient. IOW, there's no surprises here.

kevinventullo 3y ago
For what it’s worth, I did not know that, and I find it disappointing. Is there evidence that previous nomination processes were rigged in a way similar to what is suggested here?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- aspenmayer 3y ago
  I think this is exactly what you’re looking for. I’m reading through it now. Please reply with your findings if you have the time and inclination. https://alpennia.com/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distribution-statistics https://alpennia.com/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distrib... More info at my original thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39132517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39132517
- cstross 3y ago
  It's bullshit. There was an extensive campaign in favour of a particular faction circa 2013-17 organized by two loose groups (the Sad Puppies and the Rabid Puppies) which in retrospect were best understood as dry runs for Gamergate, but they flopped (all they could do was rig the shortlist: but the Hugo voters are allowed to vote "no award" if they don't like the menu, and they did so with gusto until the rules could be reformed to make nomination-brigading impractical). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Puppies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Puppies
  - bigbillheck 3y ago
    > which in retrospect were best understood as dry runs for Gamergate Gamergate kicked off between the 2nd and 3rd Sad Puppy slates and before the 1st Rabid Puppy.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
    And even in the case of those campaigns "rigging" meant campaigning to get people to vote in a way that many people found distasteful and that was probably against the spirit of the awards, not that any actual rules were violated. That's very different than this case where there is evidence of fraudulent tabulation of votes and gross misapplication of the eligibility rules.
  - gred 3y ago
    > which in retrospect were best understood as dry runs for Gamergate Where do I sign up for this monolithic Vast Right-wing Media Conspiracy? How much are the annual dues? I always get left out of these things!
- araes 3y ago
  From the blog post being passed around (9 categories of entries with distribution per nominee) 2022 was a semi-normal year. https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distribution-statistics/images/2022-distribution.jpg?itok=c2h-1mDu https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public... 2015 is the worst prior year. https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distribution-statistics/images/2015-distribution.jpg?itok=P_IKIDZd https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public... 2023 has weird cliff voting. https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distribution-statistics/images/2023-distribution.jpg?itok=BuoSa98A https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public...
  - mintplant 3y ago
    For reference, 2015 was the year the "Sad Puppies"/"Rabid Puppies" slates tried hard to skew the vote for the alt-right, and managed to distort the set of nominated works. "No Award" won many categories that year as a protest vote by WorldCon attendees. (Many jokes were made that year about "Noah Ward", multi-Hugo-winning author extraordinaire...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Puppies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Puppies
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
Are the Nebula awards more prestigious?
- Finnucane 3y ago
  In theory (one is a popular award, the other is a 'jury of your peers', though of course there is some overlap of the voting populations), but in practice, there probably isn't very much difference.
- dsr_ 3y ago
  No, fairly similar. Nebulas are voted on by members of SFWA, i.e. pro writers.
at_a_remove 3y ago
[flagged]
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  I get the first part of the joke, but what's the "something new will arise in its place"?
  - at_a_remove 3y ago
    Joke? No joke intended. I hope another award system will arise that will not be as subvertable, will stay true to its origins, and so forth. But don't mind me, I thought pulling the bust of Lovecraft off of the World Fantasy Award was also a lousy move.
    - spondylosaurus 3y ago
      But the story you mentioned did get a Nebula and a Hugo nom? Am I missing something?
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  I don't understand. isn't the awards group for the Hugo everyone who buys a ticket for the con? and the nebulas are voted by all 2000+ members of the science fiction and fantasy writers association. it's not some secret cabal we are talking about here.
- bigbillheck 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - sickofparadox 3y ago
    Very unhinged behavior to go through someone's post history to attempt a dunk on them.
    - 3y ago
lenerdenator 3y ago
Well, that's why America's greatest living novelist, Chuck Tingle, has been shafted twice.
- hrnnnnnn 3y ago
  Pounded in the Butt by my Hugo Award Nomination
- jessepasley 3y ago
  Sounds like a title of one of his books!
  - itishappy 3y ago
    There's at least 2! Pounded in the Butt by My Hugo Award Loss - Chuck Tingle Pounded in the Butt by My Second Hugo Award Nomination - Chuck Tingle
bllguo 3y ago
well this time it's the enemy du jour, China. you're not talking to a crowd that ever cared about the Hugo awards before this.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  You suspect that the median HN reader has no interest in science fiction? I routinely peruse Hugo to see what new material exists in the world.
alexilliamson 3y ago
I did not initially realize the Hugos worked this way, so I really felt compelled to check out the Broken Earth trilogy. Now, I'm one of the last people to cry "woke", but those books were awful IMO. There is no way the award went to those books based on quality (again IMO). It's not hard to imagine what other factors might have affected the outcome.
- hugonaut 3y ago
  [dead]
- ubermonkey 3y ago
  Mileage varies a LOT. I don't always love the Hugo (or Nebula) winner, because I think people who only read SF tend to value SF concepts over prose and narrative and that's sometimes reflected in the winners, but holy hell I loved both Broken Earth and Inheritance. The Great Cities twofer is mighty fine, too. Not for nothing, but Jemisin is also a MacArthur fellow.
- c0nfused 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - alexilliamson 3y ago
    I read all three and had enough hope at the beginning to push through. I really hated the second person, the stream of consciousness prose, the random all-caps, and the relentlessly bleak tone. I think NK Jimison may be a talented writer but the style drove me nuts and the story went nowhere. Reading the replies is making me rethink my initial comment. There a lot of people rushing to defend the books, so maybe it's just not for me. Perhaps I overestimated the impact of the social context on the outcome.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > I'm sorry that the gender and ethnicity of the author appears to be an issue for you. Parent didn't say that it was an issue. He called it 'woke'.
twic 3y ago
For the benefit of HN readers who are not familiar with the Hugos, this is bullshit. Until this year, there has been no suggestion that the votes or their counting has been manipulated by the organisers. There have been sort of political or social tussles over the awards, in the "Puppies" era, in particular, with organised slate voting by one faction, and then changes to the voting process by the other. But all of that happened in full compliance with the rules, and the rules for changing the rules. It's not comparable to what seems to have happened this year.

kevinventullo 3y ago

For what it’s worth, I did not know that, and I find it disappointing. Is there evidence that previous nomination processes were rigged in a way similar to what is suggested here?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
aspenmayer 3y ago
I think this is exactly what you’re looking for. I’m reading through it now. Please reply with your findings if you have the time and inclination. https://alpennia.com/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distribution-statistics https://alpennia.com/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distrib... More info at my original thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39132517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39132517
cstross 3y ago
It's bullshit. There was an extensive campaign in favour of a particular faction circa 2013-17 organized by two loose groups (the Sad Puppies and the Rabid Puppies) which in retrospect were best understood as dry runs for Gamergate, but they flopped (all they could do was rig the shortlist: but the Hugo voters are allowed to vote "no award" if they don't like the menu, and they did so with gusto until the rules could be reformed to make nomination-brigading impractical). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Puppies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Puppies
- bigbillheck 3y ago
  > which in retrospect were best understood as dry runs for Gamergate Gamergate kicked off between the 2nd and 3rd Sad Puppy slates and before the 1st Rabid Puppy.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- TheCoelacanth 3y ago
  And even in the case of those campaigns "rigging" meant campaigning to get people to vote in a way that many people found distasteful and that was probably against the spirit of the awards, not that any actual rules were violated. That's very different than this case where there is evidence of fraudulent tabulation of votes and gross misapplication of the eligibility rules.
- gred 3y ago
  > which in retrospect were best understood as dry runs for Gamergate Where do I sign up for this monolithic Vast Right-wing Media Conspiracy? How much are the annual dues? I always get left out of these things!
araes 3y ago
From the blog post being passed around (9 categories of entries with distribution per nominee) 2022 was a semi-normal year. https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distribution-statistics/images/2022-distribution.jpg?itok=c2h-1mDu https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public... 2015 is the worst prior year. https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distribution-statistics/images/2015-distribution.jpg?itok=P_IKIDZd https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public... 2023 has weird cliff voting. https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/blog/comparison-hugo-nomination-distribution-statistics/images/2023-distribution.jpg?itok=BuoSa98A https://alpennia.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public...
- mintplant 3y ago
  For reference, 2015 was the year the "Sad Puppies"/"Rabid Puppies" slates tried hard to skew the vote for the alt-right, and managed to distort the set of nominated works. "No Award" won many categories that year as a protest vote by WorldCon attendees. (Many jokes were made that year about "Noah Ward", multi-Hugo-winning author extraordinaire...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Puppies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Puppies

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

Are the Nebula awards more prestigious?

Finnucane 3y ago
In theory (one is a popular award, the other is a 'jury of your peers', though of course there is some overlap of the voting populations), but in practice, there probably isn't very much difference.
dsr_ 3y ago
No, fairly similar. Nebulas are voted on by members of SFWA, i.e. pro writers.

at_a_remove 3y ago

[flagged]

spondylosaurus 3y ago
I get the first part of the joke, but what's the "something new will arise in its place"?
- at_a_remove 3y ago
  Joke? No joke intended. I hope another award system will arise that will not be as subvertable, will stay true to its origins, and so forth. But don't mind me, I thought pulling the bust of Lovecraft off of the World Fantasy Award was also a lousy move.
  - spondylosaurus 3y ago
    But the story you mentioned did get a Nebula and a Hugo nom? Am I missing something?
amanaplanacanal 3y ago
I don't understand. isn't the awards group for the Hugo everyone who buys a ticket for the con? and the nebulas are voted by all 2000+ members of the science fiction and fantasy writers association. it's not some secret cabal we are talking about here.
bigbillheck 3y ago
[flagged]
- sickofparadox 3y ago
  Very unhinged behavior to go through someone's post history to attempt a dunk on them.
  - 3y ago

lenerdenator 3y ago

Well, that's why America's greatest living novelist, Chuck Tingle, has been shafted twice.

hrnnnnnn 3y ago
Pounded in the Butt by my Hugo Award Nomination
jessepasley 3y ago
Sounds like a title of one of his books!
- itishappy 3y ago
  There's at least 2! Pounded in the Butt by My Hugo Award Loss - Chuck Tingle Pounded in the Butt by My Second Hugo Award Nomination - Chuck Tingle

bllguo 3y ago

well this time it's the enemy du jour, China. you're not talking to a crowd that ever cared about the Hugo awards before this.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
You suspect that the median HN reader has no interest in science fiction? I routinely peruse Hugo to see what new material exists in the world.

alexilliamson 3y ago

I did not initially realize the Hugos worked this way, so I really felt compelled to check out the Broken Earth trilogy. Now, I'm one of the last people to cry "woke", but those books were awful IMO. There is no way the award went to those books based on quality (again IMO). It's not hard to imagine what other factors might have affected the outcome.

hugonaut 3y ago
[dead]
ubermonkey 3y ago
Mileage varies a LOT. I don't always love the Hugo (or Nebula) winner, because I think people who only read SF tend to value SF concepts over prose and narrative and that's sometimes reflected in the winners, but holy hell I loved both Broken Earth and Inheritance. The Great Cities twofer is mighty fine, too. Not for nothing, but Jemisin is also a MacArthur fellow.
c0nfused 3y ago
[flagged]
- alexilliamson 3y ago
  I read all three and had enough hope at the beginning to push through. I really hated the second person, the stream of consciousness prose, the random all-caps, and the relentlessly bleak tone. I think NK Jimison may be a talented writer but the style drove me nuts and the story went nowhere. Reading the replies is making me rethink my initial comment. There a lot of people rushing to defend the books, so maybe it's just not for me. Perhaps I overestimated the impact of the social context on the outcome.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > I'm sorry that the gender and ethnicity of the author appears to be an issue for you. Parent didn't say that it was an issue. He called it 'woke'.

twic 3y ago

For the benefit of HN readers who are not familiar with the Hugos, this is bullshit. Until this year, there has been no suggestion that the votes or their counting has been manipulated by the organisers. There have been sort of political or social tussles over the awards, in the "Puppies" era, in particular, with organised slate voting by one faction, and then changes to the voting process by the other. But all of that happened in full compliance with the rules, and the rules for changing the rules. It's not comparable to what seems to have happened this year.