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Have you ever been under anesthesia like propofol? I feel like most of what we call "consciousness" is converting short term memory into selected long-term mem

Have you ever been under anesthesia like propofol? I feel like most of what we call "consciousness" is converting short term memory into selected long-term memory, facilitated by language. Because then you're under, you can even be "interactive" but you're not conscious of it because your short term memory has been disabled. As to "human intelligence", honestly, I think that human languages that let us convert our "consciousness" into a shared hallucination is the key evolutionary advantage. Human intelligence comprises a hive mind in a sense, that our experience of the world is hugely affected by the shared social experience where language transfers memory from person to person.

kozd 3y ago
But why should it be like something to convert short term memory to long term memory? Computational systems can convert data between different forms of memory but we don't typically believe consciousness emerges from this operation.
- selecsosi 3y ago
  Not to say this addresses the concern but in that case a computation system is being driven by a pure line signal (the power) and is ultimately both dependant on that for operation, and requires a high level of stability of that line to be "effective". The alternative in this case is imagining that you have a biological process that has adaptive energy response controlling the movement from short term, to long term and itself optimizing based on the performance trade-off of input stimulus overload. In that case, the process of deciding what to, and when to move data from short term to long term memory (in a feedback loop) could start to approach more of the appearance of consciousness (choosing what to process, what to remember, adjusting the input rate and types of input based on the limitations of processing and retention). Many animals have consciousness as well so I think it's important to be more open to reducing the bare essentials of what a process of "awareness" is or could be rather than looking at it from a hyper evolved language/information influenced state of humans. Note I agree that it is not consciousness, but i think it's an interesting exploration to look at the modeling of it from computer forms since we are made of non-conscious atoms and still made it here
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  Basically in this argument there is no such thing as what we call experiences or consciousness. It's an imagined concept, one that we think we have but we are merely misunderstanding. Basically in this model, there is no present. The brain just invented the concept "I feel this" as a model of it's own inner workings, just like we invented the concept "object" to define certain aspects of physical reality that aren't 100% there. So, basically you are imagining your experience, when in reality you are just an automaton. Same as how you imagine a robot is happy or sad when in reality it has no feelings.
  - postmodest 3y ago
    This is precisely my hypothesis. We imagine that our human consciousness differs from animals when in fact it it exactly the same, but with a more-expressive language system on top.
feoren 3y ago
> Because then you're under, you can even be "interactive" but you're not conscious of it because your short term memory has been disabled. I don't find this convincing. If you asked someone under such anesthesia if they were currently conscious, they'd probably say "yes". Doesn't it seem more likely that you just don't remember having been conscious? If I magically wiped away a year's worth of your memory, does that retroactively mean you had actually been unconscious during that year?
- digging 3y ago
  But their saying "Yes" doesn't necessarily make it so. I've made comparable claims while asleep. (Conversely, I've believed myself completely awake while actually asleep and unaware of what my body was doing.) There would need to be a deeper test than either long-term memory or a yes-or-no question asked in the moment.
  - drdeca 3y ago
    I feel like saying that one is in a sense "conscious" while dreaming..? Though this use of "conscious" seems to conflict with another use which has "asleep" as a primary example of "not conscious"... I guess maybe this calls for another word. Not sure what word is best.

kozd 3y ago

But why should it be like something to convert short term memory to long term memory? Computational systems can convert data between different forms of memory but we don't typically believe consciousness emerges from this operation.

selecsosi 3y ago
Not to say this addresses the concern but in that case a computation system is being driven by a pure line signal (the power) and is ultimately both dependant on that for operation, and requires a high level of stability of that line to be "effective". The alternative in this case is imagining that you have a biological process that has adaptive energy response controlling the movement from short term, to long term and itself optimizing based on the performance trade-off of input stimulus overload. In that case, the process of deciding what to, and when to move data from short term to long term memory (in a feedback loop) could start to approach more of the appearance of consciousness (choosing what to process, what to remember, adjusting the input rate and types of input based on the limitations of processing and retention). Many animals have consciousness as well so I think it's important to be more open to reducing the bare essentials of what a process of "awareness" is or could be rather than looking at it from a hyper evolved language/information influenced state of humans. Note I agree that it is not consciousness, but i think it's an interesting exploration to look at the modeling of it from computer forms since we are made of non-conscious atoms and still made it here
tsimionescu 3y ago
Basically in this argument there is no such thing as what we call experiences or consciousness. It's an imagined concept, one that we think we have but we are merely misunderstanding. Basically in this model, there is no present. The brain just invented the concept "I feel this" as a model of it's own inner workings, just like we invented the concept "object" to define certain aspects of physical reality that aren't 100% there. So, basically you are imagining your experience, when in reality you are just an automaton. Same as how you imagine a robot is happy or sad when in reality it has no feelings.
- postmodest 3y ago
  This is precisely my hypothesis. We imagine that our human consciousness differs from animals when in fact it it exactly the same, but with a more-expressive language system on top.

feoren 3y ago

> Because then you're under, you can even be "interactive" but you're not conscious of it because your short term memory has been disabled. I don't find this convincing. If you asked someone under such anesthesia if they were currently conscious, they'd probably say "yes". Doesn't it seem more likely that you just don't remember having been conscious? If I magically wiped away a year's worth of your memory, does that retroactively mean you had actually been unconscious during that year?

digging 3y ago
But their saying "Yes" doesn't necessarily make it so. I've made comparable claims while asleep. (Conversely, I've believed myself completely awake while actually asleep and unaware of what my body was doing.) There would need to be a deeper test than either long-term memory or a yes-or-no question asked in the moment.
- drdeca 3y ago
  I feel like saying that one is in a sense "conscious" while dreaming..? Though this use of "conscious" seems to conflict with another use which has "asleep" as a primary example of "not conscious"... I guess maybe this calls for another word. Not sure what word is best.