3 ms·

A forceful argument I can relate to. I'd like to add one angle that may be unfamiliar to Americans: down here we have actually the following written into a spec

A forceful argument I can relate to. I'd like to add one angle that may be unfamiliar to Americans: down here we have actually the following written into a specific law on universities (a rough translation); "The function of universities is to promote liberal research and scientific and artistic scholarship, to provide the highest education based on research, and to educate students to serve their country and humanity. In carrying out their tasks, universities must provide opportunities for continuous learning, interact with the rest of society and promote the social impact of research results and artistic activities."

lookitsnicholas 3y ago
if I may ask, where is "down here"
- jruohonen 3y ago
  Finland, although I am fairly sure some other European countries have similar statements in their laws. Note though (for marcus_holmes above too) that the word liberal is a somewhat morbid translation; a direct translation would be free, but the word liberal fits better into the weird North American separation ("liberal arts" versus "university"), which we do not even have in Europe as they belong together.
  - CRConrad 3y ago
    From the way most people hold a map, that's usually called "up here".
  - nostromo 3y ago
    From an American perspective, “free” or “open” are better translations than is “liberal” here. “Liberal research” will leave people scratching their heads.
    - jruohonen 3y ago
      Point taken. But note the strong Humboldtian vibe in: "to educate students to serve their country and humanity".
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    "Liberal arts" comes from the Greek and Roman world - so, much of Europe, though probably not Finland. From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education): "Originally these subjects or skills were held by classical antiquity to be essential for a free person (liberalis, "worthy of a free person") to acquire in order to take an active part in civic life, something that included among other things participating in public debate, defending oneself in court, serving on juries, and participating in military service." So "liberal" was "for free people" as opposed to slaves. If I understand correctly, the "liberal arts college" is more in contrast to a trade school - basically, teaching things that enrich your life rather than things you depend on to make a living. Universities kind of span both - they teach philosophy and literature, but they also teach things like engineering.
marcus_holmes 3y ago
If "down here" is Australia, then it might interest you to note that 1 in 30 Australian residents are international students, and none of those people expect a liberal scholarship. The entire industry is built on giving foreign students what they paid for, and scholarship be damned.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  If an entire industry "is built on" the needs of 1/30 of its customers either they're paying a lot more than the other 29/30 or the 1/30 needs are a superset of most of the rest or it seems mismanaged. Pick at least one.
  - marcus_holmes 3y ago
    Yes, they're paying a lot more than Australian students. Fees for international students are significantly higher than for local students. Also, this is 1/30 of all Australian residents, not just Australian residents of university age. It's closer to 50% of students.

lookitsnicholas 3y ago

if I may ask, where is "down here"

jruohonen 3y ago
Finland, although I am fairly sure some other European countries have similar statements in their laws. Note though (for marcus_holmes above too) that the word liberal is a somewhat morbid translation; a direct translation would be free, but the word liberal fits better into the weird North American separation ("liberal arts" versus "university"), which we do not even have in Europe as they belong together.
- CRConrad 3y ago
  From the way most people hold a map, that's usually called "up here".
- nostromo 3y ago
  From an American perspective, “free” or “open” are better translations than is “liberal” here. “Liberal research” will leave people scratching their heads.
  - jruohonen 3y ago
    Point taken. But note the strong Humboldtian vibe in: "to educate students to serve their country and humanity".
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  "Liberal arts" comes from the Greek and Roman world - so, much of Europe, though probably not Finland. From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education): "Originally these subjects or skills were held by classical antiquity to be essential for a free person (liberalis, "worthy of a free person") to acquire in order to take an active part in civic life, something that included among other things participating in public debate, defending oneself in court, serving on juries, and participating in military service." So "liberal" was "for free people" as opposed to slaves. If I understand correctly, the "liberal arts college" is more in contrast to a trade school - basically, teaching things that enrich your life rather than things you depend on to make a living. Universities kind of span both - they teach philosophy and literature, but they also teach things like engineering.

marcus_holmes 3y ago

If "down here" is Australia, then it might interest you to note that 1 in 30 Australian residents are international students, and none of those people expect a liberal scholarship. The entire industry is built on giving foreign students what they paid for, and scholarship be damned.

drewcoo 3y ago
If an entire industry "is built on" the needs of 1/30 of its customers either they're paying a lot more than the other 29/30 or the 1/30 needs are a superset of most of the rest or it seems mismanaged. Pick at least one.
- marcus_holmes 3y ago
  Yes, they're paying a lot more than Australian students. Fees for international students are significantly higher than for local students. Also, this is 1/30 of all Australian residents, not just Australian residents of university age. It's closer to 50% of students.