3 ms·

Yep. Just as anybody can stand up a social media platform clone - the value is in the network effect and content on the platform. Because of the content and dis

by jzb 3y ago

Yep. Just as anybody can stand up a social media platform clone - the value is in the network effect and content on the platform. Because of the content and discovery features on Bandcamp, I've discovered several bands I'd never have heard of otherwise. If you're leaving hosting and promotion entirely as an exercise to the band/artist, you're not meeting the actual need. Bandcamp (mostly) met the need of artists and music enthusiasts. Unfortunately it's now in the hands of an entity that seems to care about neither.

cyanydeez 3y ago
and that network effect is what allows for enshittification to proceed unabated. We're watching that start right now with AI. which is probably the real danger of AI: locked in work flows, exploited by capitalism to leverage shitty outcomes as a way to drive up profits and downgrade outcomes.
- nusl 3y ago
  Well, you need the network effect but I don’t think the effect itself causes enshittification. The constant need for massive growth and big numbers to sate investors causes companies to drift from their original mission and morph into something soulless and purely driven by profit, despite sometimes already being wildly profitable. There is irony in me saying this on HN but the longer-term effects of VC money really really ruins good things.
  - cyanydeez 3y ago
    the network effect _allows_ enshittification, to the point that it's almost entirely why enshittification is allowed. The momentum into a ecosystem is much different than coming out. Once the Business realizes they've hit that "event horizon" enshittification necessarily flows from pure capitalism. Sure, we could redefine the physical basis of this blackhole of the internet metaphor via regulations, but corporations are not governments and do not need to follow any specific multifaceted approach to long term vision.
    - nusl 3y ago
      How could the network effect reasonably not occur for any decently popular [socially-inclined] service? Whether or not the company does anything to encourage it, with enough users it happens regardless. Sure, it enables it. Without it, you probably haven't got enough users to survive anyway. So, the choice is on the company. Money breeds bullshit and companies want money, so they leverage their leverage, which happens to be their users. Then the shit just gets worse. TXitter is "living" proof that people don't give a shit as long as they can get their endorphins from likes. So, to some extent it's also people feeding on the validation that likes from strangers gives them and not even people they know or care about. I'm not sure that even without corporate greed the network effect would not turn toxic. Picture a perfectly ethical company with 2m users logging in daily and interacting across different planes. The company can do everything it can to preserve its integrity and user rights but the users themselves will enshittify eventually. People love validation and likes are basically crack. It's changing too with short-form content sucking peoples' lives away 30 seconds at a time. Clickbait is also becoming more nefarious and AI is being leveraged to further worsen it. IMO, the modern internet is turning into a swamp of fast-validation, instant-grattification, and endless competition for that 0.5s you have to grab a user's eyes. It's all going to shit. Good luck watching YouTube in any sane capacity without significant effort. Also, good luck using websites that call themselves "for the real web" but morph into Medium, Substack, Reddit, and pretty much anything else. That's me being jaded I guess. But the internet is falling in a way that most people don't care about. Same as Reddit. Same as Twitter. Nobody gives a shit about integrity as long as they can get their dopamine hits one tap at a time.
JohnFen 3y ago
> Because of the content and discovery features on Bandcamp, I've discovered several bands I'd never have heard of otherwise. That's awesome. Bandcamp is my primary go-to for music, but I have to admit that I've never found much value in their discovery features, articles, etc. It's pretty great that Bandcamp can serve both of us what we need.

by jzb 3y ago

cyanydeez 3y ago

and that network effect is what allows for enshittification to proceed unabated. We're watching that start right now with AI. which is probably the real danger of AI: locked in work flows, exploited by capitalism to leverage shitty outcomes as a way to drive up profits and downgrade outcomes.

nusl 3y ago
Well, you need the network effect but I don’t think the effect itself causes enshittification. The constant need for massive growth and big numbers to sate investors causes companies to drift from their original mission and morph into something soulless and purely driven by profit, despite sometimes already being wildly profitable. There is irony in me saying this on HN but the longer-term effects of VC money really really ruins good things.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  the network effect _allows_ enshittification, to the point that it's almost entirely why enshittification is allowed. The momentum into a ecosystem is much different than coming out. Once the Business realizes they've hit that "event horizon" enshittification necessarily flows from pure capitalism. Sure, we could redefine the physical basis of this blackhole of the internet metaphor via regulations, but corporations are not governments and do not need to follow any specific multifaceted approach to long term vision.
  - nusl 3y ago
    How could the network effect reasonably not occur for any decently popular [socially-inclined] service? Whether or not the company does anything to encourage it, with enough users it happens regardless. Sure, it enables it. Without it, you probably haven't got enough users to survive anyway. So, the choice is on the company. Money breeds bullshit and companies want money, so they leverage their leverage, which happens to be their users. Then the shit just gets worse. TXitter is "living" proof that people don't give a shit as long as they can get their endorphins from likes. So, to some extent it's also people feeding on the validation that likes from strangers gives them and not even people they know or care about. I'm not sure that even without corporate greed the network effect would not turn toxic. Picture a perfectly ethical company with 2m users logging in daily and interacting across different planes. The company can do everything it can to preserve its integrity and user rights but the users themselves will enshittify eventually. People love validation and likes are basically crack. It's changing too with short-form content sucking peoples' lives away 30 seconds at a time. Clickbait is also becoming more nefarious and AI is being leveraged to further worsen it. IMO, the modern internet is turning into a swamp of fast-validation, instant-grattification, and endless competition for that 0.5s you have to grab a user's eyes. It's all going to shit. Good luck watching YouTube in any sane capacity without significant effort. Also, good luck using websites that call themselves "for the real web" but morph into Medium, Substack, Reddit, and pretty much anything else. That's me being jaded I guess. But the internet is falling in a way that most people don't care about. Same as Reddit. Same as Twitter. Nobody gives a shit about integrity as long as they can get their dopamine hits one tap at a time.

JohnFen 3y ago

> Because of the content and discovery features on Bandcamp, I've discovered several bands I'd never have heard of otherwise. That's awesome. Bandcamp is my primary go-to for music, but I have to admit that I've never found much value in their discovery features, articles, etc. It's pretty great that Bandcamp can serve both of us what we need.