4 ms·

I keep buying used T480 / T580 machines (last generation with easily swappable external battery, and also still easy to change battery and drive etc), and will

I keep buying used T480 / T580 machines (last generation with easily swappable external battery, and also still easy to change battery and drive etc), and will keep my T25 (it has the good keyboard!) for as long as I can.

jtwaleson 3y ago
Oh wow, the T25, I'm jealous :) I used to own the 701C that JGC restored and was super happy to see what he did with it! Now that I've owned that legend my wish-list still contains: T25, W700ds, Thinkpad 15th anniversary edition and the TransNote.
ssl-3 3y ago
I'm more of a T530 fan. It's the last 15" Thinkpad that doesn't have a numeric keypad taking up space, and I've seen it reported that it is also the last one that IBM had a hand in designing. Some folks have successfully integrated the T25 keyboard into T480 machines, which is definitely in the realm of a clever hack.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  T25 keyboard will go into T470 with a tiny bit of dremeling. I think it's a bit more work to get it into T480. I have a couple of T420 and T420s at home; I did use T530 at work back in the day, but don't have one now as I find it lacks in portability compared to T450+ generations (plus a personal perspective that if you're gonna have all that 15+" space, you might as well have full keyboard - but that's very much subjective:). T440/T540 was an abomination upon all that is holy, having witnessed two separate consulting architects slam laptops on the desk in frustration over its trackpad "buttons"! Which is why the T470/570/480/580 seems to be my own sweet spot right now - lightweight enough to be portable, still runs modern stuff well enough, and easily replaceable battery/memory/SSD:).
  - ssl-3 3y ago
    Good informaton. Thanks. Man, I just want 15"-ish laptops with good displays and keyboards that don't leave me off-center. I first used an Inspiron 6000i, and it was a fine machine for a decade or so despite being consumer-ish. I bought it new for a lot of money. I was young, but it never died. It still works. I replaced it with a used Dell Precision M4500, which was a whole different class of machine: It was spectacularly useful, and the one-screw magnesium bottom-plate was amazing. The display was astoundingly good. But the machine died: As near as I can trace, the IC on the mainboard that controls the backlight gave up. A replacement mainboard did not correct the issue, presumably because it also died for the same reason. The Precision M4600, the next newer model, has a numeric keypad, so I hate it. Same with other later Precision laptops. I'm a lot less critical about key-feel than I am about being centered on the screen. I often use my laptops as literal-laptops, and keeping my eyes and body centered seems useful to me in ways that numeric keypads on laptops cannot allow. I lust for a machine newer than my T530 that is also "serious" and that has a 15" display and that lacks a numeric keypad. : I grew up on an 88-key XT keyboard, wherein NumLock was still useful and it allowed me to choose between having arrow keys or having a numeric keypad. I thus learned to use top-row numbers because that allowed me to use both top-row numbers and arrow-keys at the same time, without actuating NumLock. I have not changed. (I do not wish to change. I do wish to keep my hands mostly-centered on the screen, though.)
makerdiety 3y ago
Desktop computers are more modular than laptop computers are. It's much easier to replace a desktop computer's keyboard than it is to replace a laptop computer's keyboard. Power supply too. And monitor. Why are desktop computers first class citizens compared to laptops when the mobility of laptops is kinda better than the mobility of desktops?
- tenebrisalietum 3y ago
  > Why are desktop computers first class citizens compared to laptops This was true in the 90's, but I'm not sure any more. Desktops are a gamer or high-performance workstation thing now. Those who don't fit that demographic and can't get by with iPads/their phones have laptops, which I would say is the standard now. The new business class "desktops" are usually laptop-style hardware in a small form factor case. Regarding modularity: - No one bothered to create a standard laptop motherboard form-factor like there was for desktops. - Laptops trend smaller over time. People are willing to sacrifice modularity for device size it seems. - Thermal management is more difficult on a laptop due to the enclosed space, so laptops historically have been slower than desktops for the same amount of money. Those who want performance will trend towards desktops, and are also the same demographic that would be interested in expanding the hardware for performance reasons as well.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    > Laptops trend smaller over time. People are willing to sacrifice modularity for device size it seems. Well, I have a different take on that, with miniaturity peaking at VGN-TX3 (as still usable, ofc there were a lot of even smaller ones, like P-series) and since then it's gravitated to 13.3"+ range. Most people around me bought 15.6"+ models, which are strictly in luggable category for me. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Sony-Vaio-VGN-TX3XP.1759.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Sony-Vaio-VGN-TX3XP.1759.0.htm...
    - NikolaNovak 3y ago
      FWIW, I think the size reduction last several years (decade?) has been focused solely on the thinness side. The "netbooks" of yore - little 12" and 10" devices - seem to have been deemed a failed experiment by the general populace and manufacturers. (I'm not saying that's my own personal perspective - I'm pretty much perennially opposite from mass market:)

jtwaleson 3y ago

Oh wow, the T25, I'm jealous :) I used to own the 701C that JGC restored and was super happy to see what he did with it! Now that I've owned that legend my wish-list still contains: T25, W700ds, Thinkpad 15th anniversary edition and the TransNote.

ssl-3 3y ago

I'm more of a T530 fan. It's the last 15" Thinkpad that doesn't have a numeric keypad taking up space, and I've seen it reported that it is also the last one that IBM had a hand in designing. Some folks have successfully integrated the T25 keyboard into T480 machines, which is definitely in the realm of a clever hack.

NikolaNovak 3y ago
T25 keyboard will go into T470 with a tiny bit of dremeling. I think it's a bit more work to get it into T480. I have a couple of T420 and T420s at home; I did use T530 at work back in the day, but don't have one now as I find it lacks in portability compared to T450+ generations (plus a personal perspective that if you're gonna have all that 15+" space, you might as well have full keyboard - but that's very much subjective:). T440/T540 was an abomination upon all that is holy, having witnessed two separate consulting architects slam laptops on the desk in frustration over its trackpad "buttons"! Which is why the T470/570/480/580 seems to be my own sweet spot right now - lightweight enough to be portable, still runs modern stuff well enough, and easily replaceable battery/memory/SSD:).
- ssl-3 3y ago
  Good informaton. Thanks. Man, I just want 15"-ish laptops with good displays and keyboards that don't leave me off-center. I first used an Inspiron 6000i, and it was a fine machine for a decade or so despite being consumer-ish. I bought it new for a lot of money. I was young, but it never died. It still works. I replaced it with a used Dell Precision M4500, which was a whole different class of machine: It was spectacularly useful, and the one-screw magnesium bottom-plate was amazing. The display was astoundingly good. But the machine died: As near as I can trace, the IC on the mainboard that controls the backlight gave up. A replacement mainboard did not correct the issue, presumably because it also died for the same reason. The Precision M4600, the next newer model, has a numeric keypad, so I hate it. Same with other later Precision laptops. I'm a lot less critical about key-feel than I am about being centered on the screen. I often use my laptops as literal-laptops, and keeping my eyes and body centered seems useful to me in ways that numeric keypads on laptops cannot allow. I lust for a machine newer than my T530 that is also "serious" and that has a 15" display and that lacks a numeric keypad. : I grew up on an 88-key XT keyboard, wherein NumLock was still useful and it allowed me to choose between having arrow keys or having a numeric keypad. I thus learned to use top-row numbers because that allowed me to use both top-row numbers and arrow-keys at the same time, without actuating NumLock. I have not changed. (I do not wish to change. I do wish to keep my hands mostly-centered on the screen, though.)

makerdiety 3y ago

Desktop computers are more modular than laptop computers are. It's much easier to replace a desktop computer's keyboard than it is to replace a laptop computer's keyboard. Power supply too. And monitor. Why are desktop computers first class citizens compared to laptops when the mobility of laptops is kinda better than the mobility of desktops?

tenebrisalietum 3y ago
> Why are desktop computers first class citizens compared to laptops This was true in the 90's, but I'm not sure any more. Desktops are a gamer or high-performance workstation thing now. Those who don't fit that demographic and can't get by with iPads/their phones have laptops, which I would say is the standard now. The new business class "desktops" are usually laptop-style hardware in a small form factor case. Regarding modularity: - No one bothered to create a standard laptop motherboard form-factor like there was for desktops. - Laptops trend smaller over time. People are willing to sacrifice modularity for device size it seems. - Thermal management is more difficult on a laptop due to the enclosed space, so laptops historically have been slower than desktops for the same amount of money. Those who want performance will trend towards desktops, and are also the same demographic that would be interested in expanding the hardware for performance reasons as well.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  > Laptops trend smaller over time. People are willing to sacrifice modularity for device size it seems. Well, I have a different take on that, with miniaturity peaking at VGN-TX3 (as still usable, ofc there were a lot of even smaller ones, like P-series) and since then it's gravitated to 13.3"+ range. Most people around me bought 15.6"+ models, which are strictly in luggable category for me. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Sony-Vaio-VGN-TX3XP.1759.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Sony-Vaio-VGN-TX3XP.1759.0.htm...
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    FWIW, I think the size reduction last several years (decade?) has been focused solely on the thinness side. The "netbooks" of yore - little 12" and 10" devices - seem to have been deemed a failed experiment by the general populace and manufacturers. (I'm not saying that's my own personal perspective - I'm pretty much perennially opposite from mass market:)