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The experience of seeing something is completely different from the physical state of the neurons that see though. You have to be "in" the physical state in ord

The experience of seeing something is completely different from the physical state of the neurons that see though. You have to be "in" the physical state in order to have the actual experience. Any physical description of the neurons does nothing to capture the actual experience of being those neurons, and that's the gap.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
I agree with that. But if you have one person reporting an experience and can capture the 'physical state'. And then take someone else and have them report an experience, and capture the 'physical state'. And they match, then you can start making the relationship. Then if my mind is captured, and I'm thinking something that correlates, then I can 'assume' i'm experiencing what the other person is. It will always be imperfect. I agree the experience of each person is unique. But-> The whole problem of the 'eye-can't-see-the-eye' means the eye doesn't exist is also kind of just playing with logic. So just because we can't embody the experience of another person, doesn't mean we can't reason about how that experience is being generated.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  I agree there might be a relationship between the physical state and the actual experience of it, but ultimately they cannot be bridged. There's only one way to bridge that gap and it's to "be" the physical state, and that's a concept that has absolutely no analogy in physical phenomena. But it's even worse than you say, because those relationships are generated purely within the mind, we don't find them outside the mind, so really all physicality is an illusion, it's all ultimately internal.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    Or even worse, the phenomena doesn't exist internally or externally. They are a combination of the processing of the sensory inputs and the internal model. So the 'phenomena' is really the processing of the inputs, no substance at all because it is the processing itself. Kind of what was described in 'Being You', by Anil Seth. Our reality is a 'controlled hallucination'. Though I don't like the terminology because it is to easily misunderstood. But. Guess, I fall on side that we can still study how Phenomena is generated internally. And still be able to understand it. Just because we can't experience the exact same phenomena as someone else, shouldn't mean we can't figure out how it is generated.
  - ta8645 3y ago
    > so really all physicality is an illusion, it's all ultimately internal. You don't really believe that. If you did, you would be fine jumping out of an airplane without a parachute, or something even more fatal.. because the physical "doesn't matter", only the internal.
    - bowsamic 3y ago
      If I do that I think I will have a negative mental experience, therefore it matters. The internal world will become undesirable if I jump out of an airplane. There is no external reason why I don't want to do that. If I could jump out of an airplane without a parachute and not expect it will have a negative impact on my internal world I would be fine with doing it. So yes I do really believe it!
      - ta8645 3y ago
        Why on earth would doing ANYTHNG in an imaginary, unimportant, realm affect your mental internal world? You don't want to admit it, but you're basically confirming that you do understand that you can not stand apart from the physical realm. You are playing mental gymnastics to pretend you're in touch with some higher knowledge and understanding... but you're still constrained to the physical world, just like the rest of us.
        bowsamic 3y ago
        Well, a story can also affect my internal world, if that’s your criteria of reality, yet I doubt you consider that as real as the physical world. Basically, according to your argument, there is already no distinction between physical and mental, which is the very reason I simply say it’s all mental. The reason I don’t call it all physical is because physical usually means “out there” and not “in here”. No, everything, absolutely everything, is “in here”. There is no “out there”. I perceive reality in this way. If you touch some outside directly that is amazing magic and a contradiction to any Logic I know. It seems kind of like you can’t really accept that this is how I understand reality. I have a tip for you: others’ views will be much clearer to you if you don’t assume they’re lying about believing them. Maybe they really do see differently to you

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

I agree with that. But if you have one person reporting an experience and can capture the 'physical state'. And then take someone else and have them report an experience, and capture the 'physical state'. And they match, then you can start making the relationship. Then if my mind is captured, and I'm thinking something that correlates, then I can 'assume' i'm experiencing what the other person is. It will always be imperfect. I agree the experience of each person is unique. But-> The whole problem of the 'eye-can't-see-the-eye' means the eye doesn't exist is also kind of just playing with logic. So just because we can't embody the experience of another person, doesn't mean we can't reason about how that experience is being generated.

bowsamic 3y ago
I agree there might be a relationship between the physical state and the actual experience of it, but ultimately they cannot be bridged. There's only one way to bridge that gap and it's to "be" the physical state, and that's a concept that has absolutely no analogy in physical phenomena. But it's even worse than you say, because those relationships are generated purely within the mind, we don't find them outside the mind, so really all physicality is an illusion, it's all ultimately internal.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Or even worse, the phenomena doesn't exist internally or externally. They are a combination of the processing of the sensory inputs and the internal model. So the 'phenomena' is really the processing of the inputs, no substance at all because it is the processing itself. Kind of what was described in 'Being You', by Anil Seth. Our reality is a 'controlled hallucination'. Though I don't like the terminology because it is to easily misunderstood. But. Guess, I fall on side that we can still study how Phenomena is generated internally. And still be able to understand it. Just because we can't experience the exact same phenomena as someone else, shouldn't mean we can't figure out how it is generated.
- ta8645 3y ago
  > so really all physicality is an illusion, it's all ultimately internal. You don't really believe that. If you did, you would be fine jumping out of an airplane without a parachute, or something even more fatal.. because the physical "doesn't matter", only the internal.
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    If I do that I think I will have a negative mental experience, therefore it matters. The internal world will become undesirable if I jump out of an airplane. There is no external reason why I don't want to do that. If I could jump out of an airplane without a parachute and not expect it will have a negative impact on my internal world I would be fine with doing it. So yes I do really believe it!
    - ta8645 3y ago
      Why on earth would doing ANYTHNG in an imaginary, unimportant, realm affect your mental internal world? You don't want to admit it, but you're basically confirming that you do understand that you can not stand apart from the physical realm. You are playing mental gymnastics to pretend you're in touch with some higher knowledge and understanding... but you're still constrained to the physical world, just like the rest of us.
      - bowsamic 3y ago
        Well, a story can also affect my internal world, if that’s your criteria of reality, yet I doubt you consider that as real as the physical world. Basically, according to your argument, there is already no distinction between physical and mental, which is the very reason I simply say it’s all mental. The reason I don’t call it all physical is because physical usually means “out there” and not “in here”. No, everything, absolutely everything, is “in here”. There is no “out there”. I perceive reality in this way. If you touch some outside directly that is amazing magic and a contradiction to any Logic I know. It seems kind of like you can’t really accept that this is how I understand reality. I have a tip for you: others’ views will be much clearer to you if you don’t assume they’re lying about believing them. Maybe they really do see differently to you