4 ms·

Not just DRM. I don't want any kind of computer either. The filter should slide/pop in and there should be a power switch that has maybe 2 to 3 speeds.

rhombocombus 3y ago
The fact that my cheap-o air purifier has soft buttons and no way to turn it on autonomously (I.e. on an automated outlet) is infuriating. What value do membrane switches add?
- userbinator 3y ago
  What value do membrane switches add? "sleek" "modern" "futuristic" "design"
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Cheap and quite amenable to automated assembly.
- lloeki 3y ago
  Sounds like a call for a steady soldering hand. I'm that close to do the same for my child's nightlight: just shunt power around whatever is opening the circuit and drive it with a Shelly plug. (Okay the grand idea would be to ultimately put an ESP32 between the control unit and the three buttons, so that I can both operate it manually yet have full control of the thing; not the least because if you cut power it resets its state to a static white light. Never done that so that'd be nice way to acquire the skill without much risk to that super cheap device)
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    It’s antithesis of ‘sweet spot’ between dumb and smart. Thing should either be dumb and do everything you want with a button, or smart and then at least you get programmability. For simple things like lights it’s usually better use of time to buy Yeelight nightlight and then you get to control it through HomeKit:home assistant/their app.
    - lloeki 3y ago
      > It’s antithesis of ‘sweet spot’ between dumb and smart. You mean the soft buttons? yeah it's nuts, not the least because since it's reacting to an impulse (either pull down to mass or pull up from mass) there's gotta be a constant power draw - however small (my Shelly plug measures it as non-zero <0.1~0.5W) - to the logic board to compare it against. (warning: back of the envelope calculation) At scale on a house one would have a bunch of such soft button devices†, cumulatively it might be on the 1~5W scale. Across a 1M city it's going to be 1~5MW. It's made worse by these devices having cheap transformers or switched mode power supplies whose non-linearity drive the power factor down to 0.5~0.7, which means it's pumping real energy production to 2~8MVA (plus on the utility side electrical hardware needs to be scaled up because e.g loss doubles) Which means for my town we're basically throwing 50~200MVAh a day right down the drain - or rather either burned up in the air or buried down "places that are not of honour" - because it doesn't make sense to have power factor correction economically (either on the device maker side, which would rise the BOM a few cents up, on the residential side where the cost is prohibitive, or on the individual size where people prefer buying cheap, electrically terrible, knockoff devices). Because yeah, in the EU passive PFC - which raises PF ~0.5 to ~0.85 - is mandated above >75W only. Comparatively to the overall energy production and usage it's small, but in absolute terms it boggles the mind that as a society we're able to handwave such amounts of energy. † I'm not counting stuff like powerbanks or chargers but again back of the envelope it should overall fold into the range, making the worst case conservative.
- longtimelistnr 3y ago
  membrane switches add value for the manufacturer, not the consumer. considerably cheaper than other solutions.
lannisterstark 3y ago
Eh, I guess I'll disagree. Automations allow me to run the purifier at Medium/High speed for certain times a day, even when I am not around. Other than that, they are always on Auto - so they produce minimal noise. However, certain times a day for period of 15-30 mins or so, they run at Medium/High so they can do certain number of air changes in a room of x SQFT. Having a 'computer' also allows them to detect when a room suddenly becomes less 'sanitized' and ramp up the 'automatic' to an appropriate level.
- vintermann 3y ago
  Indoor environment geeks run their own air purifiers put together from PC fans and oven filters. Apparently PC fans designed for it are much less noisy than the commercial alternatives, so you can run it on constant speed. I've wanted to try building one myself, but unfortunately even the minimal woodworking required is a bit of a challenge for me.
  - genewitch 3y ago
    i used a cat litter box and a hot knife, once upon a time
  - 7thaccount 3y ago
    What's the MRV of an oven filter? Is there another step on the ladder I'm not aware of?
    - vintermann 3y ago
      From what I've seen the indoor climate geeks do recommend prioritizing throughput over filter rating, so they'd rather use a box fan with MERV 13 filters rather than HEPA (which is ~ MERV 17 I think?).
- alpaca128 3y ago
  Automating based on time has been possible for decades with a simple timer that switches the power for the device. Still no computer necessary. And at least my purifier thinks 100% of the time that the air is perfectly clean no matter what, so in auto mode it would never run anyway.

rhombocombus 3y ago

The fact that my cheap-o air purifier has soft buttons and no way to turn it on autonomously (I.e. on an automated outlet) is infuriating. What value do membrane switches add?

userbinator 3y ago
What value do membrane switches add? "sleek" "modern" "futuristic" "design"
sokoloff 3y ago
Cheap and quite amenable to automated assembly.
lloeki 3y ago
Sounds like a call for a steady soldering hand. I'm that close to do the same for my child's nightlight: just shunt power around whatever is opening the circuit and drive it with a Shelly plug. (Okay the grand idea would be to ultimately put an ESP32 between the control unit and the three buttons, so that I can both operate it manually yet have full control of the thing; not the least because if you cut power it resets its state to a static white light. Never done that so that'd be nice way to acquire the skill without much risk to that super cheap device)
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  It’s antithesis of ‘sweet spot’ between dumb and smart. Thing should either be dumb and do everything you want with a button, or smart and then at least you get programmability. For simple things like lights it’s usually better use of time to buy Yeelight nightlight and then you get to control it through HomeKit:home assistant/their app.
  - lloeki 3y ago
    > It’s antithesis of ‘sweet spot’ between dumb and smart. You mean the soft buttons? yeah it's nuts, not the least because since it's reacting to an impulse (either pull down to mass or pull up from mass) there's gotta be a constant power draw - however small (my Shelly plug measures it as non-zero <0.1~0.5W) - to the logic board to compare it against. (warning: back of the envelope calculation) At scale on a house one would have a bunch of such soft button devices†, cumulatively it might be on the 1~5W scale. Across a 1M city it's going to be 1~5MW. It's made worse by these devices having cheap transformers or switched mode power supplies whose non-linearity drive the power factor down to 0.5~0.7, which means it's pumping real energy production to 2~8MVA (plus on the utility side electrical hardware needs to be scaled up because e.g loss doubles) Which means for my town we're basically throwing 50~200MVAh a day right down the drain - or rather either burned up in the air or buried down "places that are not of honour" - because it doesn't make sense to have power factor correction economically (either on the device maker side, which would rise the BOM a few cents up, on the residential side where the cost is prohibitive, or on the individual size where people prefer buying cheap, electrically terrible, knockoff devices). Because yeah, in the EU passive PFC - which raises PF ~0.5 to ~0.85 - is mandated above >75W only. Comparatively to the overall energy production and usage it's small, but in absolute terms it boggles the mind that as a society we're able to handwave such amounts of energy. † I'm not counting stuff like powerbanks or chargers but again back of the envelope it should overall fold into the range, making the worst case conservative.
longtimelistnr 3y ago
membrane switches add value for the manufacturer, not the consumer. considerably cheaper than other solutions.

lannisterstark 3y ago

Eh, I guess I'll disagree. Automations allow me to run the purifier at Medium/High speed for certain times a day, even when I am not around. Other than that, they are always on Auto - so they produce minimal noise. However, certain times a day for period of 15-30 mins or so, they run at Medium/High so they can do certain number of air changes in a room of x SQFT. Having a 'computer' also allows them to detect when a room suddenly becomes less 'sanitized' and ramp up the 'automatic' to an appropriate level.

vintermann 3y ago
Indoor environment geeks run their own air purifiers put together from PC fans and oven filters. Apparently PC fans designed for it are much less noisy than the commercial alternatives, so you can run it on constant speed. I've wanted to try building one myself, but unfortunately even the minimal woodworking required is a bit of a challenge for me.
- genewitch 3y ago
  i used a cat litter box and a hot knife, once upon a time
- 7thaccount 3y ago
  What's the MRV of an oven filter? Is there another step on the ladder I'm not aware of?
  - vintermann 3y ago
    From what I've seen the indoor climate geeks do recommend prioritizing throughput over filter rating, so they'd rather use a box fan with MERV 13 filters rather than HEPA (which is ~ MERV 17 I think?).
alpaca128 3y ago
Automating based on time has been possible for decades with a simple timer that switches the power for the device. Still no computer necessary. And at least my purifier thinks 100% of the time that the air is perfectly clean no matter what, so in auto mode it would never run anyway.