4 ms·

Leading US particle physics lab faces uncertain future

20 points by mgl 3y ago

OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
Weird article. On the one hand there are the cost overruns and health and safety problems. Sh*t happens with big projects, cost-estimating is very tough, and if projects were honestly bid, most would not get funded. But, "Access Issues" says people were not allowed in due to problems with documentation. Expired passport in one case and what I guess to be poor coordination between the directorial staffs of the Brookhaven and Fermilab in another. Unclassified lab or not, if those people _had_ gotten in, there would have been a bigger stink. [0] Fermilab's public relations and outreach are strong. The avuncular Don Lincoln holds forth on Youtube on physics topics but it is apparent that the excitement has moved elsewhere long ago. I like outrageous experiments but DUNE doesn't move my meter compared to IceCube and that's just in neutrino science. [1] Maybe big science has gotten too big and eventually other megafacilities with thousands of eggheads in one basket will feel the same pinch. [0] Inspector Rafferty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSD5VoFBDWs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSD5VoFBDWs [1] https://www.youtube.com/@fermilab/videos https://www.youtube.com/@fermilab/videos
- pjmlp 3y ago
  20 years ago, while at CERN, the usual Fermilab vs CERN topic used to be quite common regarding stuff being done, where to get the PhD on, and stuff, so it is quite of weird to read about this being Fermilab's state.
  - elashri 3y ago
    That was before LHC started. Now that the main center in the field shifted to CERN ( Europe) you will find the aame discussions but with opinions flipped. I would encourage you and everyone else to take a look into p5 panel report if you are interested into the plan for HEP in the US for the next decade. But yes, it is sad to see the current situation in Fermilab. Being a permanent researcher there is still my perfect dream job.
    - OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
      I looked up the P5 report and looked at the high and midlevel descriptions. Frankly I was underwhelmed. The Rubin and IceCube Two jumped out as interesting and exciting but the former is astrophysics with its own decadal priorities. The latter transcends particle physics due to the multimessenger aspect. The rest? Few specifics on small to midsize research. The details are for big projects that ask "What could we do for $xB?" vs. "What do we need to do and how much might it cost?" It's 90+ years since Zwicky's dunkle Materie, 50+ since Rubin's rotation curves. How many more deep undergound dark matter detectors can be or should be supported? MOND may be imperfect but nothing has yet panned out on the particle side, either. Overall, it reads like no one thought through the possibility that LHC would find no new physics beyond the very expected Higgs. Astrophysics can access energies impossible on earth, lab scale experiments may probe theories (or aspects of them). That leaves traditional big science particle physics in a jam.

20 points by mgl 3y ago

Weird article. On the one hand there are the cost overruns and health and safety problems. Sh*t happens with big projects, cost-estimating is very tough, and if projects were honestly bid, most would not get funded. But, "Access Issues" says people were not allowed in due to problems with documentation. Expired passport in one case and what I guess to be poor coordination between the directorial staffs of the Brookhaven and Fermilab in another. Unclassified lab or not, if those people _had_ gotten in, there would have been a bigger stink. [0] Fermilab's public relations and outreach are strong. The avuncular Don Lincoln holds forth on Youtube on physics topics but it is apparent that the excitement has moved elsewhere long ago. I like outrageous experiments but DUNE doesn't move my meter compared to IceCube and that's just in neutrino science. [1] Maybe big science has gotten too big and eventually other megafacilities with thousands of eggheads in one basket will feel the same pinch. [0] Inspector Rafferty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSD5VoFBDWs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSD5VoFBDWs [1] https://www.youtube.com/@fermilab/videos https://www.youtube.com/@fermilab/videos

pjmlp 3y ago
20 years ago, while at CERN, the usual Fermilab vs CERN topic used to be quite common regarding stuff being done, where to get the PhD on, and stuff, so it is quite of weird to read about this being Fermilab's state.
- elashri 3y ago
  That was before LHC started. Now that the main center in the field shifted to CERN ( Europe) you will find the aame discussions but with opinions flipped. I would encourage you and everyone else to take a look into p5 panel report if you are interested into the plan for HEP in the US for the next decade. But yes, it is sad to see the current situation in Fermilab. Being a permanent researcher there is still my perfect dream job.
  - OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
    I looked up the P5 report and looked at the high and midlevel descriptions. Frankly I was underwhelmed. The Rubin and IceCube Two jumped out as interesting and exciting but the former is astrophysics with its own decadal priorities. The latter transcends particle physics due to the multimessenger aspect. The rest? Few specifics on small to midsize research. The details are for big projects that ask "What could we do for $xB?" vs. "What do we need to do and how much might it cost?" It's 90+ years since Zwicky's dunkle Materie, 50+ since Rubin's rotation curves. How many more deep undergound dark matter detectors can be or should be supported? MOND may be imperfect but nothing has yet panned out on the particle side, either. Overall, it reads like no one thought through the possibility that LHC would find no new physics beyond the very expected Higgs. Astrophysics can access energies impossible on earth, lab scale experiments may probe theories (or aspects of them). That leaves traditional big science particle physics in a jam.