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American drivers' entitlement around speeding and other forms of unsafe driving is easily one of our least commendable qualities as a country. I'm not aware of

American drivers' entitlement around speeding and other forms of unsafe driving is easily one of our least commendable qualities as a country. I'm not aware of any other developed country with a comparable culture of neglect; it's good to see a large state take steps towards addressing that culture. There's a valid point to be made about automation being a blunt tool, versus stronger enforcement of existing laws. My only response to that point is that vehicle unsafety is, at least in my state, remarkably resistant to human enforcement: the people tasked with enforcing these laws are often the ones who feel most entitled to violate them[1]. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/nyregion/mathew-bianchi-nypd-traffic-tickets.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/nyregion/mathew-bianchi-n...

MarcoZavala 3y ago
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gottorf 3y ago
> I'm not aware of any other developed country with a comparable culture of neglect In terms of road fatalities per vehicle-mile traveled[0],the US is on par with other developed nations like Belgium and New Zealand, fares substantially better than Korea or the Czech Republic, and is substantially worse than Norway or Switzerland. But you have to remember that driving is a much more fundamentally required part of life in much of the US than it is in many of those other countries. The culture of neglect comes from (among other things) the fact that if you make getting a driver's license too hard, or losing one too easy, you effectively cut off someone's livelihood. [0]: https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/irtad-road-safety-annual-report-2018_2.pdf https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/irtad-road...
- woodruffw 3y ago
  Fatalities per vehicle-mile is the only favorable metric here, which makes intuitive sense: the US is a big empty country with a lot of rural highways. If you look at fatalities per capita or by net car ownership, the numbers are much less rosy[1]. By those metrics, the US mostly peers with SE Asia and the Middle East. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate#List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
  - gottorf 3y ago
    > If you look at fatalities per capita or by net car ownership Curiously, by that metric, the US lies between Singapore and Hong Kong. Which is strange, since car ownership is rare in both those countries and neither are really known to be hotbeds of reckless driving.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      I think Hong Kong does have a reputation for unsafe roads, it just doesn't make it to us[1]. But Singapore is a surprise to me. (That's for net car ownership. For per capita, the US's immediate peers are Bangladesh, Uruguay, Egypt, and Moldova.) [1]: https://hongkongfp.com/2022/08/25/hong-kong-pedestrians-are-most-at-risk-from-car-crashes-on-wan-chai-road-advocacy-group-finds/ https://hongkongfp.com/2022/08/25/hong-kong-pedestrians-are-...
jemmyw 3y ago
Have you been to other countries? American speeding seemed pretty sedate. I recall driving a bit too fast around some country roads in CA and people would pull over and let me past. That would never happen here, and I'd also be the slowest on the road going just a bit over the limit. Not that this is a good thing, I'm not a fan of the dangerous driving I see a lot where I live. I lived in CA for awhile and I drove across the US. Drivers there are, on average, more courteous than drivers here (new zealand). That difference doesn't seem to translate to a difference in crashes and fatalities though. I know from the stats here that 25% of people who die in car crashes were not wearing a seatbelt. I think that is interesting because it reveals that a significant number of accidents are being caused by people who are either impaired or taking risks in other ways than the average driver. So, while speeding is a factor, I'm not convinced that more cracking down on speeding is the thing that would make the most difference. Edit: I grew up and learnt to drive in the UK which has fewer than half the number of accidents per mile driven. Speeding in the UK was far more common. Police enforcement of speeding on motorways was much lower. I'm not saying speeding is good, but driving culture, population density and road engineering all play their part in these numbers too.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I have been to a lot of countries, yes. I'd say the only countries where I've consistently seen more unsafe driving have been in SE Asia. Specifically, Indonesia and the Philippines. But I haven't been to NZ, so I can't speak to your driving culture. From a quick look, NZ generally posts limits of 50km/h in cities. It's not uncommon to see 45mph (72km/h) limits in similar cities in the US. Factor the "10 over" rule in, and there are a lot of Americans who are used to going ~89km/h on urban roads. P.S. to your edit: I agree! I think American road culture is more than just speeding, and that the things you've identified play a substantial role. That's why I said "neglect" rather than focusing on just speeding.
  - jemmyw 3y ago
    Our speed limits are actually similar for similar designed roads in urban areas, 50km, 70km, 80km and 100km. A lot of the road network is 100km national speed limit, and you wouldn't typically drive that fast on US roads of a similar design (single lane each way and quite often just a single lane for both directions!). But this is because NZ has a low population and pop density. While the US has some places with a low density, it can still afford to road up those areas "better" than NZ can.
dudul 3y ago
You must not have traveled much. Go drive in France or Italy and you'll realize how courteous American drivers actually are.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I have been to both France and Italy.
  - dudul 3y ago
    Good for you, then your message makes no sense because drivers in the US are much more respectful than in these 2 example countries.

MarcoZavala 3y ago

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gottorf 3y ago

> I'm not aware of any other developed country with a comparable culture of neglect In terms of road fatalities per vehicle-mile traveled[0],the US is on par with other developed nations like Belgium and New Zealand, fares substantially better than Korea or the Czech Republic, and is substantially worse than Norway or Switzerland. But you have to remember that driving is a much more fundamentally required part of life in much of the US than it is in many of those other countries. The culture of neglect comes from (among other things) the fact that if you make getting a driver's license too hard, or losing one too easy, you effectively cut off someone's livelihood. [0]: https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/irtad-road-safety-annual-report-2018_2.pdf https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/irtad-road...

woodruffw 3y ago
Fatalities per vehicle-mile is the only favorable metric here, which makes intuitive sense: the US is a big empty country with a lot of rural highways. If you look at fatalities per capita or by net car ownership, the numbers are much less rosy[1]. By those metrics, the US mostly peers with SE Asia and the Middle East. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate#List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
- gottorf 3y ago
  > If you look at fatalities per capita or by net car ownership Curiously, by that metric, the US lies between Singapore and Hong Kong. Which is strange, since car ownership is rare in both those countries and neither are really known to be hotbeds of reckless driving.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    I think Hong Kong does have a reputation for unsafe roads, it just doesn't make it to us[1]. But Singapore is a surprise to me. (That's for net car ownership. For per capita, the US's immediate peers are Bangladesh, Uruguay, Egypt, and Moldova.) [1]: https://hongkongfp.com/2022/08/25/hong-kong-pedestrians-are-most-at-risk-from-car-crashes-on-wan-chai-road-advocacy-group-finds/ https://hongkongfp.com/2022/08/25/hong-kong-pedestrians-are-...

jemmyw 3y ago

Have you been to other countries? American speeding seemed pretty sedate. I recall driving a bit too fast around some country roads in CA and people would pull over and let me past. That would never happen here, and I'd also be the slowest on the road going just a bit over the limit. Not that this is a good thing, I'm not a fan of the dangerous driving I see a lot where I live. I lived in CA for awhile and I drove across the US. Drivers there are, on average, more courteous than drivers here (new zealand). That difference doesn't seem to translate to a difference in crashes and fatalities though. I know from the stats here that 25% of people who die in car crashes were not wearing a seatbelt. I think that is interesting because it reveals that a significant number of accidents are being caused by people who are either impaired or taking risks in other ways than the average driver. So, while speeding is a factor, I'm not convinced that more cracking down on speeding is the thing that would make the most difference. Edit: I grew up and learnt to drive in the UK which has fewer than half the number of accidents per mile driven. Speeding in the UK was far more common. Police enforcement of speeding on motorways was much lower. I'm not saying speeding is good, but driving culture, population density and road engineering all play their part in these numbers too.

woodruffw 3y ago
I have been to a lot of countries, yes. I'd say the only countries where I've consistently seen more unsafe driving have been in SE Asia. Specifically, Indonesia and the Philippines. But I haven't been to NZ, so I can't speak to your driving culture. From a quick look, NZ generally posts limits of 50km/h in cities. It's not uncommon to see 45mph (72km/h) limits in similar cities in the US. Factor the "10 over" rule in, and there are a lot of Americans who are used to going ~89km/h on urban roads. P.S. to your edit: I agree! I think American road culture is more than just speeding, and that the things you've identified play a substantial role. That's why I said "neglect" rather than focusing on just speeding.
- jemmyw 3y ago
  Our speed limits are actually similar for similar designed roads in urban areas, 50km, 70km, 80km and 100km. A lot of the road network is 100km national speed limit, and you wouldn't typically drive that fast on US roads of a similar design (single lane each way and quite often just a single lane for both directions!). But this is because NZ has a low population and pop density. While the US has some places with a low density, it can still afford to road up those areas "better" than NZ can.

dudul 3y ago

You must not have traveled much. Go drive in France or Italy and you'll realize how courteous American drivers actually are.

woodruffw 3y ago
I have been to both France and Italy.
- dudul 3y ago
  Good for you, then your message makes no sense because drivers in the US are much more respectful than in these 2 example countries.