4 ms·

Gasoline may be a lot more energy dense, but ICE are about 20% to 40% efficiency while electric motors are about 60% - 80% efficient. So the differences aren't

Gasoline may be a lot more energy dense, but ICE are about 20% to 40% efficiency while electric motors are about 60% - 80% efficient. So the differences aren't as great as you might think. If we hadn't just jumped at gasoline and money hadn't flowed so readily towards that tech, there's no telling how far battery tech would be today. A lot further than it is now, I have no doubt. The fact is that big oil has killed off again and again any threat it perceives against its absolute stranglehold on us. We've been stuck with gas engines because of greed, and only now in the 2000s are we considering alternatives because of the damage that's been done by big oil.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
defrost 3y ago
In response to the now deleted response questioning "how can we mine lithium without fossil fuels" ... Rio Tinto (mining since the pre Roman gold mines at Rio Tinto in Spain ... (alledgedly)) are already transitioning to hydrogen and renewables on their iron ore (and other) mines that move ~ 800 million tonne per annum from Western Australia (that's something like 4x greater than peak mining for steel in the US ever reached in a year). Rio Tinto and Komatsu partnering for zero-emission mining https://www.riotinto.com/en/news/releases/2021/rio-tinto-and-komatsu-partnering-for-zero-emission-mining https://www.riotinto.com/en/news/releases/2021/rio-tinto-and... See other headlines on electric trains, automation, green hydrogen (from solar) for aluminium calcination, Fortescue Futures, etc.
zmgsabst 3y ago
We haven’t switched because electricity (37 qBTU) is only a third (100 qBTU) of our energy production, and we don’t know how to triple the electricity grid. Of our electricity production, 60% is fossil fuels (coal, gas, or petroleum). We have zero clue how to replace our total energy consumption (100 qBTU) with our renewable production (15 qBTU). This is all using official EIA numbers: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/ https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/ Also, gasoline is 13 MJ/kg; normal batteries are < 1 MJ/kg. That’s a lot of density difference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density_Extended_Reference_Table https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density_Extended_Refe...
- leptons 3y ago
  >We haven’t switched because electricity (37 qBTU) is only a third (100 qBTU) of our energy production, and we don’t know how to triple the electricity grid. Sure, because plenty of money went into oil refineries and not electric infrastructure over the last 100 years. >Of our electricity production, 60% is fossil fuels (coal, gas, or petroleum). There's plenty of alternatives that big oil has put its foot on. Nuclear and solar are absolutely great alternatives, but we've wasted the last 100 years spending on big oil infrastructure and jobs. >We have zero clue how to replace our total energy consumption (100 qBTU) with our renewable production (15 qBTU). We should have a clue. It's like spending all your time playing video games and then suddenly when your 50 looking back at the wasted time when you're getting kicked out of your parents basement. My point is that it didn't have to be this way.
nojvek 3y ago
> Gasoline may be a lot more energy dense, but ICE are about 20% to 40% efficiency while electric motors are about 60% - 80% efficient. You are correct about energy efficiency of ICE vs electric motor efficiency. > So the differences aren't as great as you might think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density +-----------------------------+-------------+------------------+-------------------+ | * | Gasoline | Li-ion Batteries | Gasoline Multiple | +-----------------------------+-------------+------------------+-------------------+ | Gravimetric Density (MJ/kg) | 0.59 – 1.06 | 46.4 | 56.5x | | Volumetric Density (MJ/L) | 1.74 – 2.83 | 34.2 | 15.5x | +-----------------------------+-------------+------------------+-------------------+ Gasoline weighs ~50x less and takes 15x less volume for the same energy in a battery. There is only so much electrical energy that can be jammed in metals that form batteries. Chemical energy in C-C or C-H bonds is so much more dense. https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Supplemental_Modules_(Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry)/Chemical_Bonding/Fundamentals_of_Chemical_Bonding/Bond_Energies https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoret... In a similar paradigm, fusion energy is 20-100 million times more dense than gasoline. https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/fusion-energy https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/fusion-energy --- We have so much science and engineering to do to truly be masters of energy and intelligence.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

defrost 3y ago

In response to the now deleted response questioning "how can we mine lithium without fossil fuels" ... Rio Tinto (mining since the pre Roman gold mines at Rio Tinto in Spain ... (alledgedly)) are already transitioning to hydrogen and renewables on their iron ore (and other) mines that move ~ 800 million tonne per annum from Western Australia (that's something like 4x greater than peak mining for steel in the US ever reached in a year). Rio Tinto and Komatsu partnering for zero-emission mining https://www.riotinto.com/en/news/releases/2021/rio-tinto-and-komatsu-partnering-for-zero-emission-mining https://www.riotinto.com/en/news/releases/2021/rio-tinto-and... See other headlines on electric trains, automation, green hydrogen (from solar) for aluminium calcination, Fortescue Futures, etc.

zmgsabst 3y ago

We haven’t switched because electricity (37 qBTU) is only a third (100 qBTU) of our energy production, and we don’t know how to triple the electricity grid. Of our electricity production, 60% is fossil fuels (coal, gas, or petroleum). We have zero clue how to replace our total energy consumption (100 qBTU) with our renewable production (15 qBTU). This is all using official EIA numbers: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/ https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/ Also, gasoline is 13 MJ/kg; normal batteries are < 1 MJ/kg. That’s a lot of density difference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density_Extended_Reference_Table https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density_Extended_Refe...

leptons 3y ago
>We haven’t switched because electricity (37 qBTU) is only a third (100 qBTU) of our energy production, and we don’t know how to triple the electricity grid. Sure, because plenty of money went into oil refineries and not electric infrastructure over the last 100 years. >Of our electricity production, 60% is fossil fuels (coal, gas, or petroleum). There's plenty of alternatives that big oil has put its foot on. Nuclear and solar are absolutely great alternatives, but we've wasted the last 100 years spending on big oil infrastructure and jobs. >We have zero clue how to replace our total energy consumption (100 qBTU) with our renewable production (15 qBTU). We should have a clue. It's like spending all your time playing video games and then suddenly when your 50 looking back at the wasted time when you're getting kicked out of your parents basement. My point is that it didn't have to be this way.

nojvek 3y ago

> Gasoline may be a lot more energy dense, but ICE are about 20% to 40% efficiency while electric motors are about 60% - 80% efficient. You are correct about energy efficiency of ICE vs electric motor efficiency. > So the differences aren't as great as you might think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density +-----------------------------+-------------+------------------+-------------------+ | * | Gasoline | Li-ion Batteries | Gasoline Multiple | +-----------------------------+-------------+------------------+-------------------+ | Gravimetric Density (MJ/kg) | 0.59 – 1.06 | 46.4 | 56.5x | | Volumetric Density (MJ/L) | 1.74 – 2.83 | 34.2 | 15.5x | +-----------------------------+-------------+------------------+-------------------+ Gasoline weighs ~50x less and takes 15x less volume for the same energy in a battery. There is only so much electrical energy that can be jammed in metals that form batteries. Chemical energy in C-C or C-H bonds is so much more dense. https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Supplemental_Modules_(Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry)/Chemical_Bonding/Fundamentals_of_Chemical_Bonding/Bond_Energies https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoret... In a similar paradigm, fusion energy is 20-100 million times more dense than gasoline. https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/fusion-energy https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/fusion-energy --- We have so much science and engineering to do to truly be masters of energy and intelligence.