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But Tesla has constantly sold these cells as "their cells", constantly misleading (almost lying) to the public like these are a significant moat or technology t

But Tesla has constantly sold these cells as "their cells", constantly misleading (almost lying) to the public like these are a significant moat or technology that's exclusive to Tesla. Panasonic also has very tight relationships with Toyota, for example. There's nothing about the Panasonic/Tesla relationship that's really a "moat". ---------- If all your competitors need is just to establish a relationship with Panasonic to get their technology, that's a very different thing than like holding a patent or other "true moat".

toomuchtodo 3y ago
You’re upset about words when all that matters is outcomes. Toyota ain’t building anything until they start rolling EVs off the line at scale. They’ve been talking about EVs longer than Tesla has been building them. https://insideevs.com/news/694239/toyota-cuts-ev-sales-expectations-record-profit/ https://insideevs.com/news/694239/toyota-cuts-ev-sales-expec... (“Toyota Cuts EV Sales Expectations By 39 Percent As Its Profits Soar Thanks To Hybrids”) If I had a Tesla share for every time someone said “but $legacy_automaker plans!” Talk is cheap, building is hard.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  Toyota's battery consumption is pretty high all else considered, thanks to Prius, Rav4 Prime, etc. etc. etc. No pure EV, but plenty of opportunities to establish a relationship with Panasonic. In any case, my point remains clear. There's no kg/watt-hr advantage that Tesla holds here. Panasonic is the owner of the chemistry. Its Panasonic that's key to this relationship. And if not Panasonic, then CATL, the Chinese company Tesla has partnered with for Gigafactory Shanghai. In both cases, Tesla does NOT own the chemistry. That's a huge deal to anyone trying to pretend that "Tesla is an energy company" or other such claims. ---------- The energy companies are Panasonic and CATL in this relationship. These are the companies people should be focusing on. Moving into Utility scale, the bulk of the manufacturing problem is once again, CATL (for pushing LiFePo4 chemistry), or Panasonic (for the other Li-ion chemistry Tesla uses). EDIT: It does seem like LiFePo4 is the push for utility-scale, while the Panasonic one looks increasingly obsolete in comparison. But there are very high tariffs on CATL cells for USA's use at least. I do believe there are some non-Chinese LiFePo4 producers selling in the USA's market. EDIT: But its _these_ issues that are currently plaguing the utility market today. I'm not really sure if Tesla is on top of its utility game. Or if the Panasonic relationship is even relevant (especially due to the current trend of LiFePo4 vs other Li-ion chemistries).

toomuchtodo 3y ago

You’re upset about words when all that matters is outcomes. Toyota ain’t building anything until they start rolling EVs off the line at scale. They’ve been talking about EVs longer than Tesla has been building them. https://insideevs.com/news/694239/toyota-cuts-ev-sales-expectations-record-profit/ https://insideevs.com/news/694239/toyota-cuts-ev-sales-expec... (“Toyota Cuts EV Sales Expectations By 39 Percent As Its Profits Soar Thanks To Hybrids”) If I had a Tesla share for every time someone said “but $legacy_automaker plans!” Talk is cheap, building is hard.

dragontamer 3y ago
Toyota's battery consumption is pretty high all else considered, thanks to Prius, Rav4 Prime, etc. etc. etc. No pure EV, but plenty of opportunities to establish a relationship with Panasonic. In any case, my point remains clear. There's no kg/watt-hr advantage that Tesla holds here. Panasonic is the owner of the chemistry. Its Panasonic that's key to this relationship. And if not Panasonic, then CATL, the Chinese company Tesla has partnered with for Gigafactory Shanghai. In both cases, Tesla does NOT own the chemistry. That's a huge deal to anyone trying to pretend that "Tesla is an energy company" or other such claims. ---------- The energy companies are Panasonic and CATL in this relationship. These are the companies people should be focusing on. Moving into Utility scale, the bulk of the manufacturing problem is once again, CATL (for pushing LiFePo4 chemistry), or Panasonic (for the other Li-ion chemistry Tesla uses). EDIT: It does seem like LiFePo4 is the push for utility-scale, while the Panasonic one looks increasingly obsolete in comparison. But there are very high tariffs on CATL cells for USA's use at least. I do believe there are some non-Chinese LiFePo4 producers selling in the USA's market. EDIT: But its _these_ issues that are currently plaguing the utility market today. I'm not really sure if Tesla is on top of its utility game. Or if the Panasonic relationship is even relevant (especially due to the current trend of LiFePo4 vs other Li-ion chemistries).