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I can't think of a better way to destroy FOSS, and to drive non-free software completely off-shore. P.S. where should the liability fall for: This site can’t

I can't think of a better way to destroy FOSS, and to drive non-free software completely off-shore. P.S. where should the liability fall for: This site can’t provide a secure connection www.lawfaremedia.org sent an invalid response.

mustache_kimono 3y ago
> I can't think of a better way to destroy FOSS, and to drive non-free software completely off-shore. But products liability is for products? If you aren't selling anything how would you be liable? If you and I have no business relationship, what is the basis of liability? I don't see a liability regime touching internal use, personal use, or non-commercial (read: FOSS) development. However, when you decide to sell a service or a good, that's when liability attaches. > This site can’t provide a secure connection www.lawfaremedia.org sent an invalid response. Works for me?
- nickff 3y ago
  You can be liable for harms caused by things you give away; you can even be liable for harm caused by things stolen from you (i.e. cars).
  - mustache_kimono 3y ago
    > You can be liable for harms caused by things you give away; you can even be liable for harm caused by things stolen from you (i.e. cars). Not in traditional tort law. A criminal stealing your car is an intervening event. You didn't cause the harm. But for the sake of argument let's say you find a precedent. Please explain how that liability would work in the context of products liability. First ask yourself the threshold question: What is a product? A product is not your FOSS on GitHub.
    - nickff 3y ago
      This law firm made a handy chart for determining owner liability for harms caused by a stolen vehicle: https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/OWNER-LIABILITY-FOR-STOLEN-VEHICLE-CHART.pdf https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/OWNER-LIA... >"Please explain how that liability would work in the context of products liability. First ask yourself the threshold question: What is a product? A product is not your FOSS on GitHub. " I think that a court could easily determine a FOSS contributor was liable if they knew of a way in which the use of their software could cause harm to a user or 'victim' of the software. I am not sure the word 'product' does any work here.
      - mustache_kimono 3y ago
        Again, you're way, way outside the context of products liability, but from your cite... > The majority common law rule among the 50 states is that the owner of a stolen vehicle will not be held liable for damages when the vehicle is stolen and then involved in an accident that causes injury or property damage. This is a list of states which have varied from the majority common law rule! If a state creates a statute which says you can be fined for selling ice cream on Sundays, guess what? If your fear is the feds, like these states, may do something crazy when writing the statute, that may be a legit fear. But that doesn't have anything to do with what are traditional common law tort principles, or with the content of the article. > I think that a court could easily determine a FOSS contributor was liable if they knew of a way in which the use of their software could cause harm to a user or 'victim' of the software. You think? I suppose you can think anything you wish. But you're going to need to show your work. Like -- here are the elements of a product liability tort. Here, is how the facts apply to those elements. Conclusion, liability could result. > I am not sure the word 'product' does any work here. It does all the work I need it to do? Your core problem is a "product" must be sold. Your/our FOSS is not sold unless you/we sell it. If some ridiculous goofball takes my FOSS and puts it in a product, and there is a problem, that's his problem because he made it a product and sold it, not mine.
- geoka9 3y ago
  Say a company sells SaaS and relies on open source nginx which is found to contain such vulnerability?
  - mustache_kimono 3y ago
    > Say a company sells SaaS and relies on open source nginx which is found to contain such vulnerability? Then that SaaS company would be liable (unless they purchased nginx)? If you take someone's FOSS and create a product with it, then of course your customers will look to you when that product has a defect.
fabianhjr 3y ago
If one release a hobbyist blueprint to put an electric motor on a bicycle and then a megacorp uses that (without any due care) to release a mass-produced e-bike marketed worldwide which ends up catching fire or otherwise producing injuries due to a design flaw: - Why should one be held liable or have a legal obligation to the customers of the megacorp? - Why would one even be afraid of being sued by the customers of the megacorp? (other than if we lived in an otherwise draconian society)

mustache_kimono 3y ago

> I can't think of a better way to destroy FOSS, and to drive non-free software completely off-shore. But products liability is for products? If you aren't selling anything how would you be liable? If you and I have no business relationship, what is the basis of liability? I don't see a liability regime touching internal use, personal use, or non-commercial (read: FOSS) development. However, when you decide to sell a service or a good, that's when liability attaches. > This site can’t provide a secure connection www.lawfaremedia.org sent an invalid response. Works for me?

nickff 3y ago
You can be liable for harms caused by things you give away; you can even be liable for harm caused by things stolen from you (i.e. cars).
- mustache_kimono 3y ago
  > You can be liable for harms caused by things you give away; you can even be liable for harm caused by things stolen from you (i.e. cars). Not in traditional tort law. A criminal stealing your car is an intervening event. You didn't cause the harm. But for the sake of argument let's say you find a precedent. Please explain how that liability would work in the context of products liability. First ask yourself the threshold question: What is a product? A product is not your FOSS on GitHub.
  - nickff 3y ago
    This law firm made a handy chart for determining owner liability for harms caused by a stolen vehicle: https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/OWNER-LIABILITY-FOR-STOLEN-VEHICLE-CHART.pdf https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/OWNER-LIA... >"Please explain how that liability would work in the context of products liability. First ask yourself the threshold question: What is a product? A product is not your FOSS on GitHub. " I think that a court could easily determine a FOSS contributor was liable if they knew of a way in which the use of their software could cause harm to a user or 'victim' of the software. I am not sure the word 'product' does any work here.
    - mustache_kimono 3y ago
      Again, you're way, way outside the context of products liability, but from your cite... > The majority common law rule among the 50 states is that the owner of a stolen vehicle will not be held liable for damages when the vehicle is stolen and then involved in an accident that causes injury or property damage. This is a list of states which have varied from the majority common law rule! If a state creates a statute which says you can be fined for selling ice cream on Sundays, guess what? If your fear is the feds, like these states, may do something crazy when writing the statute, that may be a legit fear. But that doesn't have anything to do with what are traditional common law tort principles, or with the content of the article. > I think that a court could easily determine a FOSS contributor was liable if they knew of a way in which the use of their software could cause harm to a user or 'victim' of the software. You think? I suppose you can think anything you wish. But you're going to need to show your work. Like -- here are the elements of a product liability tort. Here, is how the facts apply to those elements. Conclusion, liability could result. > I am not sure the word 'product' does any work here. It does all the work I need it to do? Your core problem is a "product" must be sold. Your/our FOSS is not sold unless you/we sell it. If some ridiculous goofball takes my FOSS and puts it in a product, and there is a problem, that's his problem because he made it a product and sold it, not mine.
geoka9 3y ago
Say a company sells SaaS and relies on open source nginx which is found to contain such vulnerability?
- mustache_kimono 3y ago
  > Say a company sells SaaS and relies on open source nginx which is found to contain such vulnerability? Then that SaaS company would be liable (unless they purchased nginx)? If you take someone's FOSS and create a product with it, then of course your customers will look to you when that product has a defect.

fabianhjr 3y ago

If one release a hobbyist blueprint to put an electric motor on a bicycle and then a megacorp uses that (without any due care) to release a mass-produced e-bike marketed worldwide which ends up catching fire or otherwise producing injuries due to a design flaw: - Why should one be held liable or have a legal obligation to the customers of the megacorp? - Why would one even be afraid of being sued by the customers of the megacorp? (other than if we lived in an otherwise draconian society)