10 ms·

That you are charged to file your taxes are the most American thing ever. Over here you just sign your prefilled return via your phone and be done with it.

by mzi 3y ago

iouwhldkfjgklj 3y ago
Are you European? I'm European. I've lived in the US a couple of years. The thing is.... you're NOT charged to file your taxes. Filing your taxes is free. People have the option to pay a company that helps them file their taxes. The peculiarity of the US isn't that you're charged but that the government's own system is shit (which is why many people choose to pay). This isn't uniquely American. I'm sure there's other countries where filing your taxes is a pain - though maybe not in Europe (?).
- paxys 3y ago
  The complexity of these forms combined with the fact that getting them wrong is a felony means that filling them out without any help is out of reach for the vast majority of the population.
  - antisthenes 3y ago
    Getting them wrong is certainly not a felony. In the vast majority of cases the IRS will just send you a letter asking you to pay what you owe.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      With fees, which can be steep, and you might have to dispute what you owe, and the return payment might get lost... But yes, not a felony.
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    Getting them wrong isn’t a felony. Refusing to pay after they inform you you were wrong might be a felony. But they won’t tell you you were wrong for a few years, during which time interest accrues. (Source, just paid 5k in taxes+interest for the 2021 year after IRS sent me a letter saying my stock selling profit calculations were off by 4.5k. I think they were wrong (I was certainly wrong too) but I can file an update and get a refund on my next taxes if so. Better to stop the interest accessing while I figure out my bases)
  - Analemma_ 3y ago
    > the fact that getting them wrong is a felony Why do people keep repeating this? It's so obviously wrong I can't believe that saying it can be anything other than bad faith. I have miscalculated my taxes twice now: in both cases, the IRS sent me a letter explaining the mistake and what I still owed, I wrote them a check for that amount, and that was it. No "felony" or even the faintest hint of one was in play. The letters even had an apologetic tone and suggestions for how to set up payment plans, as well as multiple ways to dispute the charges.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Because it satisfies their narrative that you're basically forced to use tax prep (human or machine) to file and therefore the fact that you can actually do so for free is a false choice.
    - wyre 3y ago
      It might be similar to the inverse of xkcd.com/1043 (Ten Thousand), in that something has been repeated so many times people believe it to be true. Thinking about this more I'd bet the myth that miscalculating your taxes was an exaggeration based on anti-tax rhetoric.
- aljabear 3y ago
  the government's own system is shit, because Intuit has an interest in keeping it shitty. If it weren't, like other modern countries, you wouldn't pay them to help you with it. So they lobby heavily to keep the government from modernizing its system. https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f...
  - jupp0r 3y ago
    Germany's system is shitty without Intuit. They don't have a monopoly on this.
    - junon 3y ago
      Germany's system doesn't penalize you for doing nothing if you're just a worker. That's very different from the US. Last year I had an error on a form. The finanzamt sent me a letter (from a real person). My partner was able to call and ask some clarification questions. We filed the correction and it was no big deal. I wasn't in any risk of going to jail or being the target of a lawsuit. Yes, getting a tax advisor (Steuerberater) here is very difficult, and sometimes necessary. But otherwise, the system is way less intrusive than the US's in my opinion. Slow, sure. But not dangerous.
      - xboxnolifes 3y ago
        > Last year I had an error on a form. The finanzamt sent me a letter (from a real person). My partner was able to call and ask some clarification questions. We filed the correction and it was no big deal. I wasn't in any risk of going to jail or being the target of a lawsuit. This is almost verbatim what would occur in the US as well if the IRS believed there was a mistake on your tax filing. People just keep repeating false information about the IRS year after year, and nobody fact checks anything they read from random people on the internet, that now everyone thinks if you miss a zero on your tax filing you committed a felony or something. Calling US tax filing unnecessarily annoying and in-need of improvement just isn't enough for some people. They need to make up stories and baseless claims to spread fear or something.
- michaelmior 3y ago
  > the government's own system is shit (which is why many people choose to pay) The reason the government's system has historically been terrible is because of lobbying on the part of Intuit (maker of TurboTax) and others. There was a great episode of Patriot Act a few years ago that discussed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xQQkzWhMOc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xQQkzWhMOc
itake 3y ago
Are capital returns taxed? if so, how?
- hervature 3y ago
  I don't know why you are being downvoted. I think it is a very reasonable question to ask how the government can pre-populate capital tax forms without being notified of sales. If the onus is on you to send in the sales documentation throughout the year, then I would not say this is as simple as "signing on your phone". If a company handles it for you, then you are paying for that service. I would even to go so far to say that your employer being forced to maintain an accountant to send in your income tax forms is not free to you. The point being made is that anything beyond income tax is essentially impossible to automate since the government cannot (and I believe should not) track your cost side. For instance, the solar tax credit in the US is a scout's honor type form where you can put whatever cost you want to claim that are eligible without receipts. If you get audited, you better hope you can conjure those receipts. How could the government automate such a form?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    On the order of 10% of US taxpayers have anything beyond the income that is reported on a 1040. There is no need for the obvious, public, easily accessible tax filing system to be designed around the needs of that 10% (I am in that 10%, btw).
  - danans 3y ago
    > The point being made is that anything beyond income tax is essentially impossible to automate since the government cannot (and I believe should not) track your cost side. Since 2008, brokerage firms are required to include sales and their cost basis information on 1099-B forms. There's technically no reason these couldn't be electronically transmitted to the IRS in a standard format. https://www.finra.org/investors/insights/cost-basis-and-your-taxes https://www.finra.org/investors/insights/cost-basis-and-your... > For instance, the solar tax credit in the US is a scout's honor type form where you can put whatever cost you want to claim that are eligible without receipts. This is true, but as you say, the consequences of an audit and discovery of the fraud are meant to deter it. > How could the government automate such a form? Create a website where the solar installer registers the installation and enters the cost information of the project, and the taxpayer claims the record and associates it with their tax records. They are already doing something like this for car dealers for the EV tax credits: https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/register-your-dealership-to-enable-credits-for-clean-vehicle-buyers https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/register-your-dealers...
dudul 3y ago
You're only charged by a 3rd party if you hire them to handle your taxes. If you deal with the forms yourself and mail it it's free.
anderber 3y ago
I think the issue is that our taxes are so complex that we have to pay a 3rd-party to do it for most of us.
- TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
  This. Tax regulations are thousands of pages. And if you own a business, there's no way you're going to be able to run the business and become a tax filing expert.
  - mynameisvlad 3y ago
    I mean, sure, there can be complicated cases, but for the vast majority of people doing person taxes, a 1040EZ is all you need and it’s like 2 pages.
    - ksherlock 3y ago
      1040EZ (and 1040A) were phased out in 2018, apparently because the standard 1040 form was simplified (and, yeah, it's 2 pages). But your larger point is 100% correct.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      There's no 1040EZ anymore. Just FYI.
- michaelmior 3y ago
  But for most people (although perhaps not most of the HN crowd), taxes aren't terribly complex. And in theory, the IRS already has the majority (if not all) the necessary information needed to file taxes. But Intuit and others lobby to make this more difficult.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Our taxes are not that complex and for most they have never been than complex. Reagan's tax reforms greatly decreased the complexity, and Trump's reforms made them massively easier for most people. (you can think what you want about both president's but they both made reforms that made taxes much simpler) 3rd parties convince you taxes are complex via underhanded tricks, but that doesn't mean they are. There is a reason tax software puts lots of delays in - they want to you think your computer needs time to do the complex calculations. There is a reason tax preparers interview you and then don't give you the taxes filled out instantly - they want you to think there is a lot of hard work left. Has your tax preparer ever told you that some tax deductible things are not worth deducting or did they just look at and ignore the receipt - that is a way to make taxes seem complex. If you own a small business your taxes might be complex. However most people have been fooled into thinking their taxes are harder than they really are.
slg 3y ago
One of our two political parties here has the stated goal to make paying taxes as difficult and manual a process as possible in order to turn public sentiment against the very idea of taxes. The belief is that if paying your taxes was automatic and easy, there would be little pushback to tax increases.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  Where do they state that? Higher taxes aren't really more complicated to pay.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    If taxes are simple you don't realize how much they are. These people want everyone to write a check on April 15th every year for the full amount - having to come up with more than $10,000 on short notice is very hard for most people. They don't like withholding because people pay attention to the bottom line and so they don't notice the hundreds of dollars missing form each pay check.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      It's very unlikely that someone with a mostly salary W-2 with even remotely sane deductions is going to get a $10,000 bill out of the blue.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        If there was no withholding that is a reasonable bill for a lot of people. If you made $70,000 then that is about what your taxes deductions like 401k)
        ghaff 3y ago
        Well, yes, if there's no withholding and if withholding is not an option someone sort of needs to be aware of that fact and even be paying estimated quarterly taxes. It shouldn't be a surprise and there may even be a penalty past some point.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

That you are charged to file your taxes are the most American thing ever. Over here you just sign your prefilled return via your phone and be done with it.

by mzi 3y ago

That you are charged to file your taxes are the most American thing ever. Over here you just sign your prefilled return via your phone and be done with it.

iouwhldkfjgklj 3y ago

Are you European? I'm European. I've lived in the US a couple of years. The thing is.... you're NOT charged to file your taxes. Filing your taxes is free. People have the option to pay a company that helps them file their taxes. The peculiarity of the US isn't that you're charged but that the government's own system is shit (which is why many people choose to pay). This isn't uniquely American. I'm sure there's other countries where filing your taxes is a pain - though maybe not in Europe (?).

paxys 3y ago
The complexity of these forms combined with the fact that getting them wrong is a felony means that filling them out without any help is out of reach for the vast majority of the population.
- antisthenes 3y ago
  Getting them wrong is certainly not a felony. In the vast majority of cases the IRS will just send you a letter asking you to pay what you owe.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    With fees, which can be steep, and you might have to dispute what you owe, and the return payment might get lost... But yes, not a felony.
- basil-rash 3y ago
  Getting them wrong isn’t a felony. Refusing to pay after they inform you you were wrong might be a felony. But they won’t tell you you were wrong for a few years, during which time interest accrues. (Source, just paid 5k in taxes+interest for the 2021 year after IRS sent me a letter saying my stock selling profit calculations were off by 4.5k. I think they were wrong (I was certainly wrong too) but I can file an update and get a refund on my next taxes if so. Better to stop the interest accessing while I figure out my bases)
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  > the fact that getting them wrong is a felony Why do people keep repeating this? It's so obviously wrong I can't believe that saying it can be anything other than bad faith. I have miscalculated my taxes twice now: in both cases, the IRS sent me a letter explaining the mistake and what I still owed, I wrote them a check for that amount, and that was it. No "felony" or even the faintest hint of one was in play. The letters even had an apologetic tone and suggestions for how to set up payment plans, as well as multiple ways to dispute the charges.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Because it satisfies their narrative that you're basically forced to use tax prep (human or machine) to file and therefore the fact that you can actually do so for free is a false choice.
  - wyre 3y ago
    It might be similar to the inverse of xkcd.com/1043 (Ten Thousand), in that something has been repeated so many times people believe it to be true. Thinking about this more I'd bet the myth that miscalculating your taxes was an exaggeration based on anti-tax rhetoric.
aljabear 3y ago
the government's own system is shit, because Intuit has an interest in keeping it shitty. If it weren't, like other modern countries, you wouldn't pay them to help you with it. So they lobby heavily to keep the government from modernizing its system. https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f...
- jupp0r 3y ago
  Germany's system is shitty without Intuit. They don't have a monopoly on this.
  - junon 3y ago
    Germany's system doesn't penalize you for doing nothing if you're just a worker. That's very different from the US. Last year I had an error on a form. The finanzamt sent me a letter (from a real person). My partner was able to call and ask some clarification questions. We filed the correction and it was no big deal. I wasn't in any risk of going to jail or being the target of a lawsuit. Yes, getting a tax advisor (Steuerberater) here is very difficult, and sometimes necessary. But otherwise, the system is way less intrusive than the US's in my opinion. Slow, sure. But not dangerous.
    - xboxnolifes 3y ago
      > Last year I had an error on a form. The finanzamt sent me a letter (from a real person). My partner was able to call and ask some clarification questions. We filed the correction and it was no big deal. I wasn't in any risk of going to jail or being the target of a lawsuit. This is almost verbatim what would occur in the US as well if the IRS believed there was a mistake on your tax filing. People just keep repeating false information about the IRS year after year, and nobody fact checks anything they read from random people on the internet, that now everyone thinks if you miss a zero on your tax filing you committed a felony or something. Calling US tax filing unnecessarily annoying and in-need of improvement just isn't enough for some people. They need to make up stories and baseless claims to spread fear or something.
michaelmior 3y ago
> the government's own system is shit (which is why many people choose to pay) The reason the government's system has historically been terrible is because of lobbying on the part of Intuit (maker of TurboTax) and others. There was a great episode of Patriot Act a few years ago that discussed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xQQkzWhMOc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xQQkzWhMOc

itake 3y ago

Are capital returns taxed? if so, how?

hervature 3y ago
I don't know why you are being downvoted. I think it is a very reasonable question to ask how the government can pre-populate capital tax forms without being notified of sales. If the onus is on you to send in the sales documentation throughout the year, then I would not say this is as simple as "signing on your phone". If a company handles it for you, then you are paying for that service. I would even to go so far to say that your employer being forced to maintain an accountant to send in your income tax forms is not free to you. The point being made is that anything beyond income tax is essentially impossible to automate since the government cannot (and I believe should not) track your cost side. For instance, the solar tax credit in the US is a scout's honor type form where you can put whatever cost you want to claim that are eligible without receipts. If you get audited, you better hope you can conjure those receipts. How could the government automate such a form?
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  On the order of 10% of US taxpayers have anything beyond the income that is reported on a 1040. There is no need for the obvious, public, easily accessible tax filing system to be designed around the needs of that 10% (I am in that 10%, btw).
- danans 3y ago
  > The point being made is that anything beyond income tax is essentially impossible to automate since the government cannot (and I believe should not) track your cost side. Since 2008, brokerage firms are required to include sales and their cost basis information on 1099-B forms. There's technically no reason these couldn't be electronically transmitted to the IRS in a standard format. https://www.finra.org/investors/insights/cost-basis-and-your-taxes https://www.finra.org/investors/insights/cost-basis-and-your... > For instance, the solar tax credit in the US is a scout's honor type form where you can put whatever cost you want to claim that are eligible without receipts. This is true, but as you say, the consequences of an audit and discovery of the fraud are meant to deter it. > How could the government automate such a form? Create a website where the solar installer registers the installation and enters the cost information of the project, and the taxpayer claims the record and associates it with their tax records. They are already doing something like this for car dealers for the EV tax credits: https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/register-your-dealership-to-enable-credits-for-clean-vehicle-buyers https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/register-your-dealers...

dudul 3y ago

You're only charged by a 3rd party if you hire them to handle your taxes. If you deal with the forms yourself and mail it it's free.

anderber 3y ago

I think the issue is that our taxes are so complex that we have to pay a 3rd-party to do it for most of us.

TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
This. Tax regulations are thousands of pages. And if you own a business, there's no way you're going to be able to run the business and become a tax filing expert.
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  I mean, sure, there can be complicated cases, but for the vast majority of people doing person taxes, a 1040EZ is all you need and it’s like 2 pages.
  - ksherlock 3y ago
    1040EZ (and 1040A) were phased out in 2018, apparently because the standard 1040 form was simplified (and, yeah, it's 2 pages). But your larger point is 100% correct.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    There's no 1040EZ anymore. Just FYI.
michaelmior 3y ago
But for most people (although perhaps not most of the HN crowd), taxes aren't terribly complex. And in theory, the IRS already has the majority (if not all) the necessary information needed to file taxes. But Intuit and others lobby to make this more difficult.
bluGill 3y ago
Our taxes are not that complex and for most they have never been than complex. Reagan's tax reforms greatly decreased the complexity, and Trump's reforms made them massively easier for most people. (you can think what you want about both president's but they both made reforms that made taxes much simpler) 3rd parties convince you taxes are complex via underhanded tricks, but that doesn't mean they are. There is a reason tax software puts lots of delays in - they want to you think your computer needs time to do the complex calculations. There is a reason tax preparers interview you and then don't give you the taxes filled out instantly - they want you to think there is a lot of hard work left. Has your tax preparer ever told you that some tax deductible things are not worth deducting or did they just look at and ignore the receipt - that is a way to make taxes seem complex. If you own a small business your taxes might be complex. However most people have been fooled into thinking their taxes are harder than they really are.

slg 3y ago

One of our two political parties here has the stated goal to make paying taxes as difficult and manual a process as possible in order to turn public sentiment against the very idea of taxes. The belief is that if paying your taxes was automatic and easy, there would be little pushback to tax increases.

hot_gril 3y ago
Where do they state that? Higher taxes aren't really more complicated to pay.
- bluGill 3y ago
  If taxes are simple you don't realize how much they are. These people want everyone to write a check on April 15th every year for the full amount - having to come up with more than $10,000 on short notice is very hard for most people. They don't like withholding because people pay attention to the bottom line and so they don't notice the hundreds of dollars missing form each pay check.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    It's very unlikely that someone with a mostly salary W-2 with even remotely sane deductions is going to get a $10,000 bill out of the blue.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      If there was no withholding that is a reasonable bill for a lot of people. If you made $70,000 then that is about what your taxes deductions like 401k)
      - ghaff 3y ago
        Well, yes, if there's no withholding and if withholding is not an option someone sort of needs to be aware of that fact and even be paying estimated quarterly taxes. It shouldn't be a surprise and there may even be a penalty past some point.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]