4 ms·

MacOS System 7 looks like it would be a nice native interface for an e-paper tablet. I never used a Newton.

nxobject 3y ago
Yeah - having originally designed the interface for a very low dot pitch 512x342, it turns out to be practically made for fingers when you integer-scale!
donkulous 3y ago
I know people have swapped out the classic Macs CRTs for an LCD, but I wonder if anyone has tried it with an e-ink display? I've always thought the same thing regarding the classic pre-MacOS 8 systems on e-ink.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  E-ink's quality and refresh rates are inversely related. Whilst generally it's preferable to use a high-quality mode and slow (0.25 -- 4 Hz) refresh rate, refresh of as high as ~8 -- 16 Hz is possible. Video and animation quality here are not great but they are usable in a pinch. Video of an Onyx BOOX Note displaying video, which I can vouch for from a similar (Max Lumi) device: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=XRDJv_-wWBI https://yewtu.be/watch?v=XRDJv_-wWBI> For a relatively static GUI display (such as the Classic Mac), e-ink displays are in fact viable, and there are e-ink devices sold specifically as computer monitors: <https://shop.boox.com/products/mira https://shop.boox.com/products/mira> For a demonstration of the capabilities of various e-ink displays (least capable are first), see: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4> I'd want a B&W, line- or halftone-oriented graphics, and relatively static window placement in general, with paginated rather than scroll-based displays (that is, content updates a full screen at a time rather than scrolling). It's not that scrolling isn't possible, it's just that it's really annoying. And there's a reason e-ink devices tend to use line drawings or etchings as demo / sleep screens (see Diaspora* post below for example). I've written numerous times on HN about what the benefits and affordances of e-ink are, e.g.: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797> <https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/638a8d10e041013afba8448a5b29e257 https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/638a8d10e041013afba844...>
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Clarifying my first point: it's often possible to select amongst a range of quality/refresh options for a given display, either globally or for a given app (as with an Android e-ink tablet). In which case, higher display quality (more pixels, sharper boundaries, deeper blacks, whiter whites, and less ghosting) tends to come with slower display response. When you're reading static text, page-by-page, that's an acceptable trade-off. If you want to scroll, zoom, or pan through content, or are looking at animations or video, you'll want lower definition & sharpness but higher refresh. And remember that once an image is displayed, it will persist indefinitely without further power to the display.
- DerekL 3y ago
  You can't show animations with e-ink, because the refresh rate is very low. How would you even show a mouse pointer?
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Your information is badly out of date: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053>
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  Yeah, too bad that eInk can't handle the fast refresh needed for, as was pointed, out, even a moving cursor. Knowing this limitation though, I created created a kind of eInk calendar instead - as a love letter to my Mac Plus from the 90's. https://github.com/EngineersNeedArt/SystemSix https://github.com/EngineersNeedArt/SystemSix
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Your information is badly out of date: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053>
jwells89 3y ago
Classic Mac OS all the way up through OS 9 handles 1-bit and grayscale displays quite well. I’ve thought for some time now that if one were build a System 7.5/Mac OS 8 laptop with an e-ink or high quality transflective display (like that found on the Playdate[0]) and new 68k/PPC SoC built on a modern node with a modern battery, the resulting device would be surprisingly useful even if lacked connectivity. It’d sip power, with battery life likely measured in weeks or months and could probably be kept charged with a lid-sized solar panel. [0]: https://play.date/ https://play.date/
- Someone 3y ago
  > It’d sip power Are you sure? I think Classic MacOS effectively always busy-looped (WaitNextEvent would block, but only if the OS could run another event loop), never sleeping its (single) CPU. https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/mac/pdf/MacintoshToolboxEssentials.pdf#page52 https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/ma...: “The Event Manager reports a null event when your application requests an event and your application’s event stream does not contain any of the requested event types” If that’s true, that modern node CPU would not sleep most of the time, but just loop a lot faster.
  - wk_end 3y ago
    Would a 68k on a modern node running at a fraction of its potential max speed burn through very much power? Apple managed to get multiple hours of battery life out of 68k chips on classic MacOS PowerBooks...
  - nxobject 3y ago
    Would it be any different than, say, battery-powered portables like the TRS-80 Model 100?
    - eichin 3y ago
      As described at the time, the contemporary Sinclair Z88 had a separate bit of management logic that kept the Z80 CPU asleep until there was some interaction, in order to get ludicrous runtimes on 4xAA. (I wouldn't be surprised if the Model 100 did similarly, but there was no point in doing it on machines that plugged into the wall...)
msephton 3y ago
I don't know enough about how e-paper is better than e-ink, bit it would need to support 60fps for smooth cursor movement and animation. I don't see the benefit myself, because even though System 7 looks best in black and white the apps you run can and do still display in colour. Newton can be emulated on your iPhone or iPad using an app called Einstein, but you'll need a stylus as the interface elements are tiny and require a great deal of precision.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  NB, "e-ink" is a special case of "e-paper". The terms "e-paper" or "electronic paper" tends to be a generic label usually applied to electrophoretic displays, though there are numerous other technologies (Gyricon, electrowetting, interferometry, plasmonics). E-Ink[tm] is a specific technology and trademark owned by E-Ink Corporation, covered by numerous patents, and to date has relied on electrophoretics. I've addressed display characteristics in another comment to this thread here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053>. I can assure you that if e-ink characteristics and strengths are addressed by UI/UX design, e-ink can be quite satisfactory and is often preferable to other display options.

Yeah - having originally designed the interface for a very low dot pitch 512x342, it turns out to be practically made for fingers when you integer-scale!

donkulous 3y ago

I know people have swapped out the classic Macs CRTs for an LCD, but I wonder if anyone has tried it with an e-ink display? I've always thought the same thing regarding the classic pre-MacOS 8 systems on e-ink.

dredmorbius 3y ago
E-ink's quality and refresh rates are inversely related. Whilst generally it's preferable to use a high-quality mode and slow (0.25 -- 4 Hz) refresh rate, refresh of as high as ~8 -- 16 Hz is possible. Video and animation quality here are not great but they are usable in a pinch. Video of an Onyx BOOX Note displaying video, which I can vouch for from a similar (Max Lumi) device: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=XRDJv_-wWBI https://yewtu.be/watch?v=XRDJv_-wWBI> For a relatively static GUI display (such as the Classic Mac), e-ink displays are in fact viable, and there are e-ink devices sold specifically as computer monitors: <https://shop.boox.com/products/mira https://shop.boox.com/products/mira> For a demonstration of the capabilities of various e-ink displays (least capable are first), see: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4> I'd want a B&W, line- or halftone-oriented graphics, and relatively static window placement in general, with paginated rather than scroll-based displays (that is, content updates a full screen at a time rather than scrolling). It's not that scrolling isn't possible, it's just that it's really annoying. And there's a reason e-ink devices tend to use line drawings or etchings as demo / sleep screens (see Diaspora* post below for example). I've written numerous times on HN about what the benefits and affordances of e-ink are, e.g.: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797> <https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/638a8d10e041013afba8448a5b29e257 https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/638a8d10e041013afba844...>
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Clarifying my first point: it's often possible to select amongst a range of quality/refresh options for a given display, either globally or for a given app (as with an Android e-ink tablet). In which case, higher display quality (more pixels, sharper boundaries, deeper blacks, whiter whites, and less ghosting) tends to come with slower display response. When you're reading static text, page-by-page, that's an acceptable trade-off. If you want to scroll, zoom, or pan through content, or are looking at animations or video, you'll want lower definition & sharpness but higher refresh. And remember that once an image is displayed, it will persist indefinitely without further power to the display.
DerekL 3y ago
You can't show animations with e-ink, because the refresh rate is very low. How would you even show a mouse pointer?
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Your information is badly out of date: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053>
JKCalhoun 3y ago
Yeah, too bad that eInk can't handle the fast refresh needed for, as was pointed, out, even a moving cursor. Knowing this limitation though, I created created a kind of eInk calendar instead - as a love letter to my Mac Plus from the 90's. https://github.com/EngineersNeedArt/SystemSix https://github.com/EngineersNeedArt/SystemSix
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Your information is badly out of date: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053>

jwells89 3y ago

Classic Mac OS all the way up through OS 9 handles 1-bit and grayscale displays quite well. I’ve thought for some time now that if one were build a System 7.5/Mac OS 8 laptop with an e-ink or high quality transflective display (like that found on the Playdate[0]) and new 68k/PPC SoC built on a modern node with a modern battery, the resulting device would be surprisingly useful even if lacked connectivity. It’d sip power, with battery life likely measured in weeks or months and could probably be kept charged with a lid-sized solar panel. [0]: https://play.date/ https://play.date/

Someone 3y ago
> It’d sip power Are you sure? I think Classic MacOS effectively always busy-looped (WaitNextEvent would block, but only if the OS could run another event loop), never sleeping its (single) CPU. https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/mac/pdf/MacintoshToolboxEssentials.pdf#page52 https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/ma...: “The Event Manager reports a null event when your application requests an event and your application’s event stream does not contain any of the requested event types” If that’s true, that modern node CPU would not sleep most of the time, but just loop a lot faster.
- wk_end 3y ago
  Would a 68k on a modern node running at a fraction of its potential max speed burn through very much power? Apple managed to get multiple hours of battery life out of 68k chips on classic MacOS PowerBooks...
- nxobject 3y ago
  Would it be any different than, say, battery-powered portables like the TRS-80 Model 100?
  - eichin 3y ago
    As described at the time, the contemporary Sinclair Z88 had a separate bit of management logic that kept the Z80 CPU asleep until there was some interaction, in order to get ludicrous runtimes on 4xAA. (I wouldn't be surprised if the Model 100 did similarly, but there was no point in doing it on machines that plugged into the wall...)

msephton 3y ago

I don't know enough about how e-paper is better than e-ink, bit it would need to support 60fps for smooth cursor movement and animation. I don't see the benefit myself, because even though System 7 looks best in black and white the apps you run can and do still display in colour. Newton can be emulated on your iPhone or iPad using an app called Einstein, but you'll need a stylus as the interface elements are tiny and require a great deal of precision.

dredmorbius 3y ago
NB, "e-ink" is a special case of "e-paper". The terms "e-paper" or "electronic paper" tends to be a generic label usually applied to electrophoretic displays, though there are numerous other technologies (Gyricon, electrowetting, interferometry, plasmonics). E-Ink[tm] is a specific technology and trademark owned by E-Ink Corporation, covered by numerous patents, and to date has relied on electrophoretics. I've addressed display characteristics in another comment to this thread here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39198053>. I can assure you that if e-ink characteristics and strengths are addressed by UI/UX design, e-ink can be quite satisfactory and is often preferable to other display options.