4 ms·

One figures that wanting to make money would be a sufficient motivation for companies to maintain their equipment. With anything even remotely resembling compet

One figures that wanting to make money would be a sufficient motivation for companies to maintain their equipment. With anything even remotely resembling competent leadership, having the government pay for you to setup infrastructure that provides you with reoccurring revenue is a dream position to be in. Yet somehow.... here we are.

stetrain 3y ago
Right now fast chargers are very expensive to build and install, and the return on investment just from selling electricity isn't great unless it's actually used many times per day. I think a lot of these charging providers make most of their money by installing the charger when it's paid for by grants, businesses, etc. rather than from the ongoing business of charging cars. Tesla reduces up front costs with vertical integration instead of buying chargers from third party suppliers like other charging companies do. They also have their own fleet of cars and data on where chargers are needed, so most of their chargers get decent utilization. That said I think part of why Tesla is doing deals to get more cars on their network is to increase that utilization even farther at more remote chargers that might currently be losing money on their books.
- com2kid 3y ago
  > Right now fast chargers are very expensive to build and install, and the return on investment just from selling electricity isn't great unless it's actually used many times per day. It is funny, I have a friend running a fast charger business in another country, and he is making plenty of money w/o needing any government grants to get started. They are vertically integrated from doing HW design, software (they tried outsourcing that, it went badly), to managing physical locations. They are also expanding slowly and only doing installations where it makes financial sense.
  - stetrain 3y ago
    Sounds like they are doing things right. Do they also provide any other amenities that might drive revenue like vending, coffee, etc?
    - com2kid 3y ago
      > Do they also provide any other amenities that might drive revenue like vending, coffee, etc? Full meals. :-D IIRC they sublease land to small restaurants to open food stalls.
      - stetrain 3y ago
        So they have incentive to keep the chargers and site in good shape because it impacts their charging business as well as the food sales. A lot of chargers in the US are just dropped in the back of a parking lot somewhere. Once the provider has gotten the installation check then they don't have much ongoing incentive to keep it working well. Or even if they want to, keeping the hardware and software working well is tougher when they aren't vertically integrated.
MisterBastahrd 3y ago
Sure, but it also requires the decision makers to be rational. I worked for a publisher that I had built a social platform for that encompassed a number of different things, but their main money maker was their classified ads system since they were in a state that allowed classified ads for gun sales (a big hunting and fishing site). So this required a two tiered approach because we were not allowed to display third party network ads on pages that specifically featured firearm categories. Later, some bug got into the ear of the new company President about just converting everything over to a different platform and putting the classifieds system behind the same paywall they use for magazine subscriptions. After telling her that we had already gone over the economics of the decision and why we stuck with what we had, she decided to switch over anyway. In her mind, it was unfathomable that people wouldn't pay her money to post ads on her site. Her husband went so far as to accuse me of not wanting to change because it would mean the elimination of my retainer. So what used to be a section of the site that generated about $45K a month in ad revenue now receives about 80 classified ads per month, and a family that has spent a generation leeching off of the work of their parents is about to erase a legacy before the old man even dies.
- com2kid 3y ago
  > Sure, but it also requires the decision makers to be rational. This is true, and I wasn't taking into account that short term misaligned incentives are super easy to create even in companies that are trying to be rational. Something as simple as quarterly sales bonuses are a common enough cause of this. (Sell sell sell, fail to meet delivery times, lose all customer trust)

stetrain 3y ago

Right now fast chargers are very expensive to build and install, and the return on investment just from selling electricity isn't great unless it's actually used many times per day. I think a lot of these charging providers make most of their money by installing the charger when it's paid for by grants, businesses, etc. rather than from the ongoing business of charging cars. Tesla reduces up front costs with vertical integration instead of buying chargers from third party suppliers like other charging companies do. They also have their own fleet of cars and data on where chargers are needed, so most of their chargers get decent utilization. That said I think part of why Tesla is doing deals to get more cars on their network is to increase that utilization even farther at more remote chargers that might currently be losing money on their books.

com2kid 3y ago
> Right now fast chargers are very expensive to build and install, and the return on investment just from selling electricity isn't great unless it's actually used many times per day. It is funny, I have a friend running a fast charger business in another country, and he is making plenty of money w/o needing any government grants to get started. They are vertically integrated from doing HW design, software (they tried outsourcing that, it went badly), to managing physical locations. They are also expanding slowly and only doing installations where it makes financial sense.
- stetrain 3y ago
  Sounds like they are doing things right. Do they also provide any other amenities that might drive revenue like vending, coffee, etc?
  - com2kid 3y ago
    > Do they also provide any other amenities that might drive revenue like vending, coffee, etc? Full meals. :-D IIRC they sublease land to small restaurants to open food stalls.
    - stetrain 3y ago
      So they have incentive to keep the chargers and site in good shape because it impacts their charging business as well as the food sales. A lot of chargers in the US are just dropped in the back of a parking lot somewhere. Once the provider has gotten the installation check then they don't have much ongoing incentive to keep it working well. Or even if they want to, keeping the hardware and software working well is tougher when they aren't vertically integrated.

MisterBastahrd 3y ago

Sure, but it also requires the decision makers to be rational. I worked for a publisher that I had built a social platform for that encompassed a number of different things, but their main money maker was their classified ads system since they were in a state that allowed classified ads for gun sales (a big hunting and fishing site). So this required a two tiered approach because we were not allowed to display third party network ads on pages that specifically featured firearm categories. Later, some bug got into the ear of the new company President about just converting everything over to a different platform and putting the classifieds system behind the same paywall they use for magazine subscriptions. After telling her that we had already gone over the economics of the decision and why we stuck with what we had, she decided to switch over anyway. In her mind, it was unfathomable that people wouldn't pay her money to post ads on her site. Her husband went so far as to accuse me of not wanting to change because it would mean the elimination of my retainer. So what used to be a section of the site that generated about $45K a month in ad revenue now receives about 80 classified ads per month, and a family that has spent a generation leeching off of the work of their parents is about to erase a legacy before the old man even dies.

com2kid 3y ago
> Sure, but it also requires the decision makers to be rational. This is true, and I wasn't taking into account that short term misaligned incentives are super easy to create even in companies that are trying to be rational. Something as simple as quarterly sales bonuses are a common enough cause of this. (Sell sell sell, fail to meet delivery times, lose all customer trust)