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I'm completely ok with the police asking me for video from my doorbell. I'm not ok with the police using the third party doctrine and asking the hosting service

I'm completely ok with the police asking me for video from my doorbell. I'm not ok with the police using the third party doctrine and asking the hosting service for my video without asking me. That video is every bit my property as the files in my desk drawer and should be subject to the same protections.

ses1984 3y ago
Pretty sure if you read the fine print that video is not your property, but even if it was, how can you enforce that if it’s not on your own servers?
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Which in itself blows my mind. Imagine if Canon told me the pictures taken with my camera were not my property.
  - graemep 3y ago
    At one point one of the big camera manufacturers tried using DRM to force use of their software to process image. I cannot recall when one or exactly what the restrictions were. I think it was with RAW image.
  - ses1984 3y ago
    The canon camera is self sufficient writing to your memory card. The ring doorbell is functionally useless without the server side components (afaik, I could be wrong). The whole issue arises because the video isn’t stored on your own servers. Those server side components provide a lot of value and that’s why people choose to buy those products, as opposed to similar products that are just dumb wifi cameras.
- mlyle 3y ago
  He's not asking about how to enforce it, I don't think. He's wishing that things like your e-mail, videos in the cloud, etc, required a warrant for the police to search, instead of just a subpoena to a third party. The article falsely implies that a warrant is required, but in practice police can just subpoena the information.
  - indymike 3y ago
    They don’t even have to subpoena they can just ask.
  - ses1984 3y ago
    If you don’t have a way to enforce it then you pretty much have to assume that law enforcement will come after it sooner or later.
- kansface 3y ago
  Encryption. Anyone org than can side step it doesn't matter anyway.
smolder 3y ago
It's a mistake to trust a cloud service with your data and expect no one to take advantage of the fact that they are the ones holding it.
- goodSteveramos 3y ago
  If the so-called liberal Western regimes respected privacy rights they way they claim to it would be perfectly reasonable to trust a cloud provider with your data.
  - indymike 3y ago
    Technology moves faster than law, so we’re seeing areas where the existing precedent, such as the “Third Party Doctrine,” just doesn’t work well when I’m renting server space (all SaaS is this way) for much of what would have been personal property and papers. The nice thing about Western democracies is that they evolve over time and generally get better. In the US things are changing as judges are forced to review decisions and laws are changed as both judges and representatives start to understand new tech. It takes time.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    I think I'm not understanding your point. GDPR seems to be the current gold standard for privacy at the moment. Are there any similar policies in non-western nations to speak of?
    - goodSteveramos 3y ago
      How is what non-western countries do relevant to the question of if western governments actually practice the values they claim to hold?
      - itishappy 3y ago
        You're making this out to be a western problem, but I suspect it's actually a general human thing. Actually, I have a hunch that the west has made more progress here than anywhere else, and I'm curious if anyone disagrees.
bastardoperator 3y ago
I agree with the sentiment, but in this case you just licensed software, you don't own the bits, the service, the components, or the video. Those files were never in your desk drawer, they've always been in amazon's desk drawer. While this is a step in the right direction, I would look to an RTSP doorbell if you're concerned.
- tomwheeler 3y ago
  > I would look to an RTSP doorbell if you're concerned The problem is that the market success of products from Ring and similar companies have obliterated the market for DIY systems, so the few RTSP doorbells that exist aren't very good.
cameldrv 3y ago
My understanding is that even though you view it as your property, according to the patriot act, it’s a “business record” of the provider and subject to disclosure without a warrant.
- indymike 3y ago
  This is unconstitutional and needs to stop.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  Could you cite a source for that claim please? This is the first that I'm hearing this.
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  Wasn't most of the patriot act left to expire by the trump administration back in 2020? Were those parts ever renewed since?
JohnFen 3y ago
I think it's important to consider any data being held on someone else's server as being effectively publicly available. That's one of the main reasons why I don't use cloud services and would never use a device that required someone else's server to hold or process sensitive data.
- tlb 3y ago
  Do you have some recommended devices that follow that rule?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    For doorbell cameras specifically? No, it's not a product category that I'm interested in and so haven't looked into it. For surveillance cameras generally, the market is full of non-cloudy ones. It's hard to give recommendations without knowing what your needs are, and even then I'd hesitate because I don't maintain a mental list of what's current on the market. I know that's not helpful, and I'm sorry. My process is to research options when the time comes that I am actively trying to solve a problem and just buy the one that fits best. For surveillance cameras, for me, this means "dumb" ones that I feed into a control unit that manages multiple cameras and applies any smarts I may want.
_heimdall 3y ago
We'd be much better off as a society if more of our governing systems were voluntary. That's no silver bullet for sure, but it would go pretty damn far. One of the more ridiculous examples I have come across, unpasteurized milk. In the US, as well as Canada and other western countries I believe, it is illegal to sell raw milk for human consumption. Meaning that if I have a neighbor with a milk cow, I can't buy a gallon of milk from them to drink or cook with. Stores can obviously do what they want, and requiring FDA certification for example would effectively block raw milk from stores. But why can't I choose to ignore FDA guidelines meant for industrial milk production and just buy a damn gallon of milk from a local farm?
- patmorgan23 3y ago
  We have pasteurization for a reason mate. Raw milk goes bad pretty quickly, even in our modern, cleaner farm system. 3 day old raw milk, even if kept perfectly chilled can be deadly.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    Have you actually tested this? We have dairy cows these days. Raw milk straight from the cow takes an extremely long time to actually spoil in a dangerous sense. If left out it will sour and eventually separate, while it isn't usually what a person would want to eat it isn't dangerous. It absolutely doesn't go bad in a fridge, we've had jars in the fridge for weeks with absolutely no problem. 3 day old, unrefrigerated pasteurized milk is absolutely dangerous, don't drink it. Pasteurization of milk became commonplace as a solution for shipping milk long distances and storing it in warehouses for days or weeks. If pasteurized and managed properly the flavor won't changed. Raw milk will effectively ferment at room temp as the lactic acid bacteria begins to consume lactose. The byproducts aren't dangerous and are effectively the curds and whey that Little Miss Muffet told us all about, that's just not what you want to find in a jug of milk at the store.
themaninthedark 3y ago
Is it even <your> video? After reading the product description on Amazon, it looks like it is the hardware that you need to buy in order to use Amazon's doorbell and monitoring service. See: In order to view "your" video history, you must subscribe to the Amazon Protect plan.

ses1984 3y ago

Pretty sure if you read the fine print that video is not your property, but even if it was, how can you enforce that if it’s not on your own servers?

FireBeyond 3y ago
Which in itself blows my mind. Imagine if Canon told me the pictures taken with my camera were not my property.
- graemep 3y ago
  At one point one of the big camera manufacturers tried using DRM to force use of their software to process image. I cannot recall when one or exactly what the restrictions were. I think it was with RAW image.
- ses1984 3y ago
  The canon camera is self sufficient writing to your memory card. The ring doorbell is functionally useless without the server side components (afaik, I could be wrong). The whole issue arises because the video isn’t stored on your own servers. Those server side components provide a lot of value and that’s why people choose to buy those products, as opposed to similar products that are just dumb wifi cameras.
mlyle 3y ago
He's not asking about how to enforce it, I don't think. He's wishing that things like your e-mail, videos in the cloud, etc, required a warrant for the police to search, instead of just a subpoena to a third party. The article falsely implies that a warrant is required, but in practice police can just subpoena the information.
- indymike 3y ago
  They don’t even have to subpoena they can just ask.
- ses1984 3y ago
  If you don’t have a way to enforce it then you pretty much have to assume that law enforcement will come after it sooner or later.
kansface 3y ago
Encryption. Anyone org than can side step it doesn't matter anyway.

smolder 3y ago

It's a mistake to trust a cloud service with your data and expect no one to take advantage of the fact that they are the ones holding it.

goodSteveramos 3y ago
If the so-called liberal Western regimes respected privacy rights they way they claim to it would be perfectly reasonable to trust a cloud provider with your data.
- indymike 3y ago
  Technology moves faster than law, so we’re seeing areas where the existing precedent, such as the “Third Party Doctrine,” just doesn’t work well when I’m renting server space (all SaaS is this way) for much of what would have been personal property and papers. The nice thing about Western democracies is that they evolve over time and generally get better. In the US things are changing as judges are forced to review decisions and laws are changed as both judges and representatives start to understand new tech. It takes time.
- itishappy 3y ago
  I think I'm not understanding your point. GDPR seems to be the current gold standard for privacy at the moment. Are there any similar policies in non-western nations to speak of?
  - goodSteveramos 3y ago
    How is what non-western countries do relevant to the question of if western governments actually practice the values they claim to hold?
    - itishappy 3y ago
      You're making this out to be a western problem, but I suspect it's actually a general human thing. Actually, I have a hunch that the west has made more progress here than anywhere else, and I'm curious if anyone disagrees.

bastardoperator 3y ago

I agree with the sentiment, but in this case you just licensed software, you don't own the bits, the service, the components, or the video. Those files were never in your desk drawer, they've always been in amazon's desk drawer. While this is a step in the right direction, I would look to an RTSP doorbell if you're concerned.

tomwheeler 3y ago
> I would look to an RTSP doorbell if you're concerned The problem is that the market success of products from Ring and similar companies have obliterated the market for DIY systems, so the few RTSP doorbells that exist aren't very good.

cameldrv 3y ago

My understanding is that even though you view it as your property, according to the patriot act, it’s a “business record” of the provider and subject to disclosure without a warrant.

indymike 3y ago
This is unconstitutional and needs to stop.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
Could you cite a source for that claim please? This is the first that I'm hearing this.
mardifoufs 3y ago
Wasn't most of the patriot act left to expire by the trump administration back in 2020? Were those parts ever renewed since?

JohnFen 3y ago

I think it's important to consider any data being held on someone else's server as being effectively publicly available. That's one of the main reasons why I don't use cloud services and would never use a device that required someone else's server to hold or process sensitive data.

tlb 3y ago
Do you have some recommended devices that follow that rule?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  For doorbell cameras specifically? No, it's not a product category that I'm interested in and so haven't looked into it. For surveillance cameras generally, the market is full of non-cloudy ones. It's hard to give recommendations without knowing what your needs are, and even then I'd hesitate because I don't maintain a mental list of what's current on the market. I know that's not helpful, and I'm sorry. My process is to research options when the time comes that I am actively trying to solve a problem and just buy the one that fits best. For surveillance cameras, for me, this means "dumb" ones that I feed into a control unit that manages multiple cameras and applies any smarts I may want.

_heimdall 3y ago

We'd be much better off as a society if more of our governing systems were voluntary. That's no silver bullet for sure, but it would go pretty damn far. One of the more ridiculous examples I have come across, unpasteurized milk. In the US, as well as Canada and other western countries I believe, it is illegal to sell raw milk for human consumption. Meaning that if I have a neighbor with a milk cow, I can't buy a gallon of milk from them to drink or cook with. Stores can obviously do what they want, and requiring FDA certification for example would effectively block raw milk from stores. But why can't I choose to ignore FDA guidelines meant for industrial milk production and just buy a damn gallon of milk from a local farm?

patmorgan23 3y ago
We have pasteurization for a reason mate. Raw milk goes bad pretty quickly, even in our modern, cleaner farm system. 3 day old raw milk, even if kept perfectly chilled can be deadly.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  Have you actually tested this? We have dairy cows these days. Raw milk straight from the cow takes an extremely long time to actually spoil in a dangerous sense. If left out it will sour and eventually separate, while it isn't usually what a person would want to eat it isn't dangerous. It absolutely doesn't go bad in a fridge, we've had jars in the fridge for weeks with absolutely no problem. 3 day old, unrefrigerated pasteurized milk is absolutely dangerous, don't drink it. Pasteurization of milk became commonplace as a solution for shipping milk long distances and storing it in warehouses for days or weeks. If pasteurized and managed properly the flavor won't changed. Raw milk will effectively ferment at room temp as the lactic acid bacteria begins to consume lactose. The byproducts aren't dangerous and are effectively the curds and whey that Little Miss Muffet told us all about, that's just not what you want to find in a jug of milk at the store.

themaninthedark 3y ago

Is it even <your> video? After reading the product description on Amazon, it looks like it is the hardware that you need to buy in order to use Amazon's doorbell and monitoring service. See: In order to view "your" video history, you must subscribe to the Amazon Protect plan.