4 ms·

Bribes are illegal in the USA.

pvaldes 3y ago
Science keeps a lot of traditions that would be illegal in most fields. A company wouldn't dare to say publicly "People older than 30 Years can't apply to our job" or "People from NY will be favored, we will not hire people from Louisiana". I see equivalent claims in the Academic field aaaall the time; is pissing on the constitution, and nobody fucking cares.
Macha 3y ago
The legal definition of bribery though is: > Bribery refers to the offering, giving, soliciting, or receiving of any item of value as a means of influencing the actions of an individual holding a public or legal duty. Scientific journals are not public institutions (though maybe they should be) so their editors aren't holding public duty. Legal duty also seems a stretch, though maybe possible depending on how the editor's contracts are worded. I suspect they don't say very much detail on job responsibilities though. So immoral, and stuff many companies and institutions consequently have policies against, but doesn't seem illegal.
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  Where did you get that definition ?
- shkkmo 3y ago
  It is absolutely illegal. Many states have laws that explicitly target commercial bribery. Even where those laws don't exist, various fraud laws can also apply. I don't know if there is specific precedent here, but your broad assertions are quite incorrect as even a cursory google search will reveal.
  - shoemakersteve 3y ago
    While it's true that there are U.S. states where it's illegal, there are many places (maybe most?) where it's not. Presumably due to the fact that it's near impossible to prove in court unless they were giving out receipts that said "bribe for business deal" on them or something. Otherwise there's almost no scenario where you can't say "we're friends and they gave me a gift, I chose their company for the contract because I thought they were the best choice."
    - shkkmo 3y ago
      > While it's true that there are U.S. states where it's illegal Its over 2/3rds of states and includes most major ones have laws against commercial kickbacks. Even in states that aren't you could be charged with fraud under state law. > Otherwise there's almost no scenario where you can't say "we're friends and they gave me a gift, I chose their company for the contract because I thought they were the best choice." This argument is silly. It applies equally to federal laws that are frequently used to prosecute kickbacks for government employees, contractors and subcontractors. There are plenty of ways to charge someone with kickbacks besides idiotically labeled receipts. Just because you think you can get away with something because it is hard to prove, doesn't make that activity legal, let alone moral/ethical.
- haswell 3y ago
  > The legal definition of bribery though is This might sound pedantic, but this might be better framed as: The form of bribery that is illegal is the kind that involves offering, giving, soliciting…an individual holding a public or legal duty. Bribery as a concept stands on its own, outside of the legal system. The legal system defines what forms of bribery will get you in legal trouble, but does not have a monopoly on bribery itself. To your point, that means there are forms of bribery that may be technically legal.
  - Macha 3y ago
    Yes, the difference between illegal and immoral is one I've myself tried to explain to HN people often enough (though more usually in the context of people trying to argue "It's not illegal, why are you complaining about it", when a company does something immoral). That is why I had the final paragraph: > So immoral, and stuff many companies and institutions consequently have policies against, but doesn't seem illegal.
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    If you ask SCOTUS, some forms of bribery are actually constitutionally protected free speech!
    - janalsncm 3y ago
      If you asked SCOTUS, some of them might have to recuse themselves.
Maken 3y ago
Can't you call it lobbying and get away with it?
- theGnuMe 3y ago
  You can give a maximum donation to a politician! :) Or fund a superPac.. legal that way.

Science keeps a lot of traditions that would be illegal in most fields. A company wouldn't dare to say publicly "People older than 30 Years can't apply to our job" or "People from NY will be favored, we will not hire people from Louisiana". I see equivalent claims in the Academic field aaaall the time; is pissing on the constitution, and nobody fucking cares.

Macha 3y ago

The legal definition of bribery though is: > Bribery refers to the offering, giving, soliciting, or receiving of any item of value as a means of influencing the actions of an individual holding a public or legal duty. Scientific journals are not public institutions (though maybe they should be) so their editors aren't holding public duty. Legal duty also seems a stretch, though maybe possible depending on how the editor's contracts are worded. I suspect they don't say very much detail on job responsibilities though. So immoral, and stuff many companies and institutions consequently have policies against, but doesn't seem illegal.

worthless-trash 3y ago
Where did you get that definition ?
shkkmo 3y ago
It is absolutely illegal. Many states have laws that explicitly target commercial bribery. Even where those laws don't exist, various fraud laws can also apply. I don't know if there is specific precedent here, but your broad assertions are quite incorrect as even a cursory google search will reveal.
- shoemakersteve 3y ago
  While it's true that there are U.S. states where it's illegal, there are many places (maybe most?) where it's not. Presumably due to the fact that it's near impossible to prove in court unless they were giving out receipts that said "bribe for business deal" on them or something. Otherwise there's almost no scenario where you can't say "we're friends and they gave me a gift, I chose their company for the contract because I thought they were the best choice."
  - shkkmo 3y ago
    > While it's true that there are U.S. states where it's illegal Its over 2/3rds of states and includes most major ones have laws against commercial kickbacks. Even in states that aren't you could be charged with fraud under state law. > Otherwise there's almost no scenario where you can't say "we're friends and they gave me a gift, I chose their company for the contract because I thought they were the best choice." This argument is silly. It applies equally to federal laws that are frequently used to prosecute kickbacks for government employees, contractors and subcontractors. There are plenty of ways to charge someone with kickbacks besides idiotically labeled receipts. Just because you think you can get away with something because it is hard to prove, doesn't make that activity legal, let alone moral/ethical.
haswell 3y ago
> The legal definition of bribery though is This might sound pedantic, but this might be better framed as: The form of bribery that is illegal is the kind that involves offering, giving, soliciting…an individual holding a public or legal duty. Bribery as a concept stands on its own, outside of the legal system. The legal system defines what forms of bribery will get you in legal trouble, but does not have a monopoly on bribery itself. To your point, that means there are forms of bribery that may be technically legal.
- Macha 3y ago
  Yes, the difference between illegal and immoral is one I've myself tried to explain to HN people often enough (though more usually in the context of people trying to argue "It's not illegal, why are you complaining about it", when a company does something immoral). That is why I had the final paragraph: > So immoral, and stuff many companies and institutions consequently have policies against, but doesn't seem illegal.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  If you ask SCOTUS, some forms of bribery are actually constitutionally protected free speech!
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    If you asked SCOTUS, some of them might have to recuse themselves.

Maken 3y ago

Can't you call it lobbying and get away with it?

theGnuMe 3y ago
You can give a maximum donation to a politician! :) Or fund a superPac.. legal that way.