5 ms·

I have been struggling to understand the immigration controversy. My understanding is a lot of the hate is related to refugees, which don't seem to be too high

by hhh 3y ago

I have been struggling to understand the immigration controversy. My understanding is a lot of the hate is related to refugees, which don't seem to be too high numbers wise?[1] 1: https://ind.nl/en/about-us/statistics-and-publications/asylum-trends https://ind.nl/en/about-us/statistics-and-publications/asylu...

sebmellen 3y ago
There are conservatively 100x as many economic migrants as true refugees, many of whom enter through the same immigration routes and are devout Muslims who hold beliefs that are incompatible with western legal systems. In 2014 there were 13 Salafist mosques in the country which rose to 27 in 2018. The number of Salafist preachers was more than doubled in the same time span, from 50 to 110 according to the Dutch counter-terrorism authority (NCTV). In 2019, an investigation by the Nieuwsuur TV programme and the newspaper NRC, investigated fifty mosque schools, obtaining educational material from ten Quran classes given by fundamentalist organisations. The investigation showed that children were taught that infidels go to hell. Punishments against homosexuals and "enemies of God" were glorified. In an ideal Islamic state operating under sharia law, heretics would be punished by the death penalty, adulterers stoned and magicians killed by the sword. Children were warned against having social contacts with non-Muslims. [0] [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_Netherlands https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_Netherlands
- Vinnl 3y ago
  At least in the Netherlands the majority of immigrants are of Dutch and European descent, e.g. Polish, Romanian or Bulgarian seasonal workers. I am sceptical that those are devout Muslims and use the same immigration routes as e.g. Syrian refugees. More likely they just hop in the car and drive, since that's legal within the Schengen area.
  - sebmellen 3y ago
    That’s not true. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#National_origins https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherland... Population of the Netherlands by country of birth (2022) Dutch (74.77%) Turks (2.44%) Moroccans (2.38%) Surinamese (2.05%)
    - berkes 3y ago
      That's misleading. Those aren't immigrants in recent era's. Which is what you imply. Turkish, Morrocan and Surinam immigrated to NL in the '70s and '80s. That's 40 years ago, almost two generations. Many of them never immigrated but were born in NL. (and their parents too)
      - sebmellen 3y ago
        This is literally a breakdown of immigrants by country of birth. The numbers of “people with a migrant background”, as they are usually known, are much higher. Most major cities in the Netherlands, including Amsterdam and Rotterdam, are no longer majority Dutch by ethnicity.
        berkes 3y ago
        No. It isn't. Immigration has an effect on demography, but they aren't the same. "Immigration background" has the "background" word in there, specially to distinguish it from actual immigrants! You can keep pasting your list in this thread, but that doesn't change the fact that most immigrants (again: different from demography) are from Europe, are Christian, are "white" and immigrate because they were asked (!) to come and work here. TBC: we aren't discussing immigration in the deep history (because then, except for the Sami, all Europeans are migrants from "northern india"), nor that from several generations ago, but recent migrants. i.e. people whom themselves migrated.
        Vinnl 3y ago
        If you click through to the source that Wikipedia is citing [1], you can see that it's counting 1st and 2nd generations, and are indeed categorised as "people with a migrant background" ("met migratieachtergrond"). It also shows that 1.889.704 people (10.74%) have a non-Dutch European background. Also note that these numbers are about people currently here. The percentages will be different if you look at movements in the past year. [1] https://opendata.cbs.nl/statline/#/CBS/nl/dataset/37325/table https://opendata.cbs.nl/statline/#/CBS/nl/dataset/37325/tabl...
    - Vinnl 3y ago
- hhh 3y ago
  The data I can find[1] shows the majority being from Ukraine or the former Soviet Union. Do you have a source for this claim? 1: https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/asylum-migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands- https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/asylum-migration-and-integr...
  - sebmellen 3y ago
    Immigrants and people of migrant backgrounds (2022) Nationality, Population Turkey 429,978 Morocco 419,272 Suriname 359,814 Indonesia 349,301 Germany 342,925 Poland 220,980 Syria 126,260 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#National_origins https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherland... Every non-European country on this list besides Suriname is majority Muslim. Also, note that your data appears to reflect only registered immigrants.
    - berkes 3y ago
      Demography != immigration stats.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - hhh 3y ago
      What's the difference?
- berkes 3y ago
  Sorry, but this is misleading at best, and an outright lie at worst. The majority of immigrants is from the EU, directly followed by European descend (Ukraine). There are those from "western countries" like the US, Canada, Australia and so on. The vast majority actively recruited to come work in IT/startups, other knowledge-jobs, healthcare or "logistics". Farm work too, though that's seasonal so more complex to calculate. The amount of "muslim immigrants that cause problems" is in the hundreds, at most. It's truly insignificant, unless their "ideals" are so opposite to yours that every individual becomes a problem. But that says more about your personal stance than about the actual problems.
  - sebmellen 3y ago
    Immigrants and people of migrant backgrounds (2022) Nationality, Population Turkey 429,978 Morocco 419,272 Suriname 359,814 Indonesia 349,301 Germany 342,925 Poland 220,980 Syria 126,260 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#National_origins https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherland... Every non-European country on this list besides Suriname is majority Muslim.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - me_me_me 3y ago
    > "muslim immigrants that cause problems" is in the hundreds, at most Talking about outright lying, eh? Its like you forcefully trying look at the issue as close as possible to ignore reality of the big picture. Today's problems will be bigger tomorrow. Its about trends and where its going, NOT where it is now. The trend of illegal and legal immigration from muslim (and african) countries will not slow down. Their countries will be producing poor, desperate people forever. Its a fallout of cultural shift in philosophy abandoning science (look up al-Ghazali). EU countries will either regulate migration or will have to somehow deal with ever increasing muslim population. Muslim culture is not accommodating it doesnt assimilate. You don't have to guess that its happening, you have examples in France and Germany. Where Moroccan, Turkish communities created their own bubbles a parallel socialites at odds with the host countries. Where are Polish minorities in France? Where are Czech ones in Germany? Why we never had a terrorist attack by polish migrant(s) for making jokes about every pole being carjacker? Immigration from within EU self assimilates as EU cultures are pretty much variation of same base culture. That happens automatically. Talking about Dutch or Belgian (not 100% sure), they released economical statistics about migrants by avg impact of given groups. EU migrants net positive gains for economy. Muslim and african avg net negative. You might spin the facts and feel good stories but it doesnt change the reality. Reality obvious to middle and lower classes who are actually first to experience the outcomes of that. Its mad to think that an average citizens will not turn to right wing. Then left is wondering how is right on the rise across all eu?! its baffling There are plenty of outspoken Muslim community people openly saying they will out-breed their host population and take over. And you dont need that much. 10% of population is significant enough to elect their own politicians, as they will always get votes from religious block. adding fuel right into far-right bonfire Nobody is learning from mistakes of others. No-go zones in sweeden were a right wing made up propaganda 5 years ago. A reality nobody is even questioning now.
- pstuart 3y ago
  All religious fundamentalism is at odds with modern civilization. Leaders of all faiths should be preaching continuously that their church and state must be distinctly separate.
  - sebmellen 3y ago
    Agreed. Anyone who disagrees with this is dangerously off course. Hitchens warned us.
berkes 3y ago
They are not. Edit: the net-total that the entire "problem issues" are about, is some thousands of people. On a population of 17 mln thats "nothing". It's an entirely fabricated and inflated "issue", that was invented purely by politicians who want to use the fear and outrage (that they themselves caused!) for win. Both by elected parties, who deliberately defunded or scaled down on immigrant issues, knowing this caused problems - that they then could use as "proof" that there are problems, and by non-elected parties. Some clear signs are that strong anti-immigration parties did very well in villages and cities that have zero to no immigrants: clearly shows that it's more fear than actual felt pain.

by hhh 3y ago

sebmellen 3y ago

There are conservatively 100x as many economic migrants as true refugees, many of whom enter through the same immigration routes and are devout Muslims who hold beliefs that are incompatible with western legal systems. In 2014 there were 13 Salafist mosques in the country which rose to 27 in 2018. The number of Salafist preachers was more than doubled in the same time span, from 50 to 110 according to the Dutch counter-terrorism authority (NCTV). In 2019, an investigation by the Nieuwsuur TV programme and the newspaper NRC, investigated fifty mosque schools, obtaining educational material from ten Quran classes given by fundamentalist organisations. The investigation showed that children were taught that infidels go to hell. Punishments against homosexuals and "enemies of God" were glorified. In an ideal Islamic state operating under sharia law, heretics would be punished by the death penalty, adulterers stoned and magicians killed by the sword. Children were warned against having social contacts with non-Muslims. [0] [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_Netherlands https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_Netherlands

Vinnl 3y ago
At least in the Netherlands the majority of immigrants are of Dutch and European descent, e.g. Polish, Romanian or Bulgarian seasonal workers. I am sceptical that those are devout Muslims and use the same immigration routes as e.g. Syrian refugees. More likely they just hop in the car and drive, since that's legal within the Schengen area.
- sebmellen 3y ago
  That’s not true. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#National_origins https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherland... Population of the Netherlands by country of birth (2022) Dutch (74.77%) Turks (2.44%) Moroccans (2.38%) Surinamese (2.05%)
  - berkes 3y ago
    That's misleading. Those aren't immigrants in recent era's. Which is what you imply. Turkish, Morrocan and Surinam immigrated to NL in the '70s and '80s. That's 40 years ago, almost two generations. Many of them never immigrated but were born in NL. (and their parents too)
    - sebmellen 3y ago
      This is literally a breakdown of immigrants by country of birth. The numbers of “people with a migrant background”, as they are usually known, are much higher. Most major cities in the Netherlands, including Amsterdam and Rotterdam, are no longer majority Dutch by ethnicity.
      - berkes 3y ago
        No. It isn't. Immigration has an effect on demography, but they aren't the same. "Immigration background" has the "background" word in there, specially to distinguish it from actual immigrants! You can keep pasting your list in this thread, but that doesn't change the fact that most immigrants (again: different from demography) are from Europe, are Christian, are "white" and immigrate because they were asked (!) to come and work here. TBC: we aren't discussing immigration in the deep history (because then, except for the Sami, all Europeans are migrants from "northern india"), nor that from several generations ago, but recent migrants. i.e. people whom themselves migrated.
      - Vinnl 3y ago
        If you click through to the source that Wikipedia is citing [1], you can see that it's counting 1st and 2nd generations, and are indeed categorised as "people with a migrant background" ("met migratieachtergrond"). It also shows that 1.889.704 people (10.74%) have a non-Dutch European background. Also note that these numbers are about people currently here. The percentages will be different if you look at movements in the past year. [1] https://opendata.cbs.nl/statline/#/CBS/nl/dataset/37325/table https://opendata.cbs.nl/statline/#/CBS/nl/dataset/37325/tabl...
  - Vinnl 3y ago
hhh 3y ago
The data I can find[1] shows the majority being from Ukraine or the former Soviet Union. Do you have a source for this claim? 1: https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/asylum-migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands- https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/asylum-migration-and-integr...
- sebmellen 3y ago
  Immigrants and people of migrant backgrounds (2022) Nationality, Population Turkey 429,978 Morocco 419,272 Suriname 359,814 Indonesia 349,301 Germany 342,925 Poland 220,980 Syria 126,260 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#National_origins https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherland... Every non-European country on this list besides Suriname is majority Muslim. Also, note that your data appears to reflect only registered immigrants.
  - berkes 3y ago
    Demography != immigration stats.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - hhh 3y ago
    What's the difference?
berkes 3y ago
Sorry, but this is misleading at best, and an outright lie at worst. The majority of immigrants is from the EU, directly followed by European descend (Ukraine). There are those from "western countries" like the US, Canada, Australia and so on. The vast majority actively recruited to come work in IT/startups, other knowledge-jobs, healthcare or "logistics". Farm work too, though that's seasonal so more complex to calculate. The amount of "muslim immigrants that cause problems" is in the hundreds, at most. It's truly insignificant, unless their "ideals" are so opposite to yours that every individual becomes a problem. But that says more about your personal stance than about the actual problems.
- sebmellen 3y ago
  Immigrants and people of migrant backgrounds (2022) Nationality, Population Turkey 429,978 Morocco 419,272 Suriname 359,814 Indonesia 349,301 Germany 342,925 Poland 220,980 Syria 126,260 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#National_origins https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherland... Every non-European country on this list besides Suriname is majority Muslim.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- me_me_me 3y ago
  > "muslim immigrants that cause problems" is in the hundreds, at most Talking about outright lying, eh? Its like you forcefully trying look at the issue as close as possible to ignore reality of the big picture. Today's problems will be bigger tomorrow. Its about trends and where its going, NOT where it is now. The trend of illegal and legal immigration from muslim (and african) countries will not slow down. Their countries will be producing poor, desperate people forever. Its a fallout of cultural shift in philosophy abandoning science (look up al-Ghazali). EU countries will either regulate migration or will have to somehow deal with ever increasing muslim population. Muslim culture is not accommodating it doesnt assimilate. You don't have to guess that its happening, you have examples in France and Germany. Where Moroccan, Turkish communities created their own bubbles a parallel socialites at odds with the host countries. Where are Polish minorities in France? Where are Czech ones in Germany? Why we never had a terrorist attack by polish migrant(s) for making jokes about every pole being carjacker? Immigration from within EU self assimilates as EU cultures are pretty much variation of same base culture. That happens automatically. Talking about Dutch or Belgian (not 100% sure), they released economical statistics about migrants by avg impact of given groups. EU migrants net positive gains for economy. Muslim and african avg net negative. You might spin the facts and feel good stories but it doesnt change the reality. Reality obvious to middle and lower classes who are actually first to experience the outcomes of that. Its mad to think that an average citizens will not turn to right wing. Then left is wondering how is right on the rise across all eu?! its baffling There are plenty of outspoken Muslim community people openly saying they will out-breed their host population and take over. And you dont need that much. 10% of population is significant enough to elect their own politicians, as they will always get votes from religious block. adding fuel right into far-right bonfire Nobody is learning from mistakes of others. No-go zones in sweeden were a right wing made up propaganda 5 years ago. A reality nobody is even questioning now.
pstuart 3y ago
All religious fundamentalism is at odds with modern civilization. Leaders of all faiths should be preaching continuously that their church and state must be distinctly separate.
- sebmellen 3y ago
  Agreed. Anyone who disagrees with this is dangerously off course. Hitchens warned us.

berkes 3y ago

They are not. Edit: the net-total that the entire "problem issues" are about, is some thousands of people. On a population of 17 mln thats "nothing". It's an entirely fabricated and inflated "issue", that was invented purely by politicians who want to use the fear and outrage (that they themselves caused!) for win. Both by elected parties, who deliberately defunded or scaled down on immigrant issues, knowing this caused problems - that they then could use as "proof" that there are problems, and by non-elected parties. Some clear signs are that strong anti-immigration parties did very well in villages and cities that have zero to no immigrants: clearly shows that it's more fear than actual felt pain.