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So a wealthy anarchist and socialist who also was a dreamer and a poet while also being a capitalist who fought the system and an adventurer. Quite a lot of fac

So a wealthy anarchist and socialist who also was a dreamer and a poet while also being a capitalist who fought the system and an adventurer. Quite a lot of facets.

pmg102 3y ago
> Unlike many in his scene, Saunders was not a leftist. He had no time for welfarism or state ownership, which he dismissed as inefficient, yet he also rejected rampant capitalism, which he saw as fundamentally unfair. Not sure TFA supports your assertion that he was a socialist.
- emmet 3y ago
  Ah but he enjoyed coffee that wasn't freeze dried so that makes him a socialist according to the British media.
- vidarh 3y ago
  I agree with you that the article doesn't support that claim, but many socialists I know would also "have no time for welfarism or state ownership" - with some opposing the mere existence of a state - so it also doesn't really support the claim he wasn't "leftist" either. The principles for Neals Yard regarding worker involvement, favouring encouraging and supporting workers expanding businesses by starting their own offshoots, and his practice of giving away businesses does smell lightly of something close-ish to socialism, though perhaps closer to the kind of Owens and Fourier, that Marx came to describe as "utopian" for their failure to provide any answers for society-wide structural change, than any more modern version. As another comments pointed out, this article is peak Guardian - favouring small businesses and artisanal products over mass production, and countering extremes of capitalism in eccentric small scale ways, while at no point favouring anything to effect actual lasting change in any way that might threaten anyone with money.
TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
The Guardian boosting the public school-educated son of a neoliberal economist and supporter of eugenics, whose most lasting achievements seem to be artisanal coffee, cheese, and cosmetics empires that serve very comfortable middle class people, is the most Guardian thing ever.
- wanderingbit 3y ago
  The only part about the father in the entire article was a touching vignette about how Saunder’s dad would go above and beyond to answer his son’s questions. Did something in the article or Saunders’ life point to him being neoliberal or into eugenics? Your comment is strange; I assume you would not like it if people applied the sins of your father to you. If anything, the fact that Saunders turned out the way he did despite his father should be a cause for celebration. Your comment made me sad that you thought a clearly positive-sum person’s life story could be summed up so pithely.
  - amadeuspagel 3y ago
    I guess the point of the parent comment is that the way Saunders turned out - closing his store after a newspaper report about it, because normal customers are killing the vibe - is because of his father. (I don't know anything about his father. If anything, he might have been more egalitarian, after all neoliberal economics is about businesses serving everyone.) And yeah, it is a wonderful story despite that. Comments don't have to sum up the story.
  - helboi4 3y ago
    Being public school educated and coming from the sort of family that implies - one of corrupt and disproportionate power - definitely makes your story much less inspiring. That's a lot of cultural capital, connections and financial support that most people can't dream of. Really undermines the whole life lesson about the power of counter culture.
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      I'm not sure I'd call the story inspiring, but it's certainly _interesting_. Public school or no public school, it is very unusual for someone to change a country's culture so dramatically, seemingly largely by accident (or at least you don't get the impression from the article that he _set out_ to change the mainstream culture).
    - 15457345234 3y ago
tomcam 3y ago
No one talks about money more than English socialists

So a wealthy anarchist and socialist who also was a dreamer and a poet while also being a capitalist who fought the system and an adventurer. Quite a lot of facets.

pmg102 3y ago

> Unlike many in his scene, Saunders was not a leftist. He had no time for welfarism or state ownership, which he dismissed as inefficient, yet he also rejected rampant capitalism, which he saw as fundamentally unfair. Not sure TFA supports your assertion that he was a socialist.

emmet 3y ago
Ah but he enjoyed coffee that wasn't freeze dried so that makes him a socialist according to the British media.
vidarh 3y ago
I agree with you that the article doesn't support that claim, but many socialists I know would also "have no time for welfarism or state ownership" - with some opposing the mere existence of a state - so it also doesn't really support the claim he wasn't "leftist" either. The principles for Neals Yard regarding worker involvement, favouring encouraging and supporting workers expanding businesses by starting their own offshoots, and his practice of giving away businesses does smell lightly of something close-ish to socialism, though perhaps closer to the kind of Owens and Fourier, that Marx came to describe as "utopian" for their failure to provide any answers for society-wide structural change, than any more modern version. As another comments pointed out, this article is peak Guardian - favouring small businesses and artisanal products over mass production, and countering extremes of capitalism in eccentric small scale ways, while at no point favouring anything to effect actual lasting change in any way that might threaten anyone with money.

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago

The Guardian boosting the public school-educated son of a neoliberal economist and supporter of eugenics, whose most lasting achievements seem to be artisanal coffee, cheese, and cosmetics empires that serve very comfortable middle class people, is the most Guardian thing ever.

wanderingbit 3y ago
The only part about the father in the entire article was a touching vignette about how Saunder’s dad would go above and beyond to answer his son’s questions. Did something in the article or Saunders’ life point to him being neoliberal or into eugenics? Your comment is strange; I assume you would not like it if people applied the sins of your father to you. If anything, the fact that Saunders turned out the way he did despite his father should be a cause for celebration. Your comment made me sad that you thought a clearly positive-sum person’s life story could be summed up so pithely.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  I guess the point of the parent comment is that the way Saunders turned out - closing his store after a newspaper report about it, because normal customers are killing the vibe - is because of his father. (I don't know anything about his father. If anything, he might have been more egalitarian, after all neoliberal economics is about businesses serving everyone.) And yeah, it is a wonderful story despite that. Comments don't have to sum up the story.
- helboi4 3y ago
  Being public school educated and coming from the sort of family that implies - one of corrupt and disproportionate power - definitely makes your story much less inspiring. That's a lot of cultural capital, connections and financial support that most people can't dream of. Really undermines the whole life lesson about the power of counter culture.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    I'm not sure I'd call the story inspiring, but it's certainly _interesting_. Public school or no public school, it is very unusual for someone to change a country's culture so dramatically, seemingly largely by accident (or at least you don't get the impression from the article that he _set out_ to change the mainstream culture).
  - 15457345234 3y ago

tomcam 3y ago

No one talks about money more than English socialists