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This isn't a debate. There's no debate moderator. There's no points. If you wanna schedule something formal send me some contact info, we'll put it on twitch, b

by hmcq6 3y ago

This isn't a debate. There's no debate moderator. There's no points. If you wanna schedule something formal send me some contact info, we'll put it on twitch, but either way debates don't prove anything. This is an internet community. I'm trying not to be too much of a dickhead but I'll be damned if I can't call an idea stupid. You said a silly thing. It's like saying "2 + 2 = 5" with no further explanation. Doesn't mean you're dumb. We all make mistakes. But it's one mistake to type it and it's a second mistake to send it and think "hell yeah, people will read that and know what I mean". And now you're coming back and doubling down with a "no you didn't understand me". No, man. No, I did understand you. You're just making a claim that doesn't hold weight. You've offered no more proof of your claim than I have that... hmm lets think... "lightbulbs solved slavery". Your argument is akin to me saying: "Lightbulb, invented 1879. Know what you saw a lot of in 1870 that you don't see any more? slavery. Know what you see a lot of now that they didn't have in 1870? That's right, lightbulbs ended slavery. My point was that there is now a global consensus that slavery and genocide are unacceptable, and this consensus did not exist in the pre-lightbulb era." And like, both our theories are fun theories, but you haven't shown your work to convince anyone that your theory is correct. You're just vaguely gesturing at literally all of history and saying "see". Why even drop the "well, ackshually" in the first place if you don't want to do the work of arguing your case?

ETH_start 3y ago
We are indeed engaging in a debate by definition, as we're exchanging arguments, irrespective of its formality. People engaging in discussions on Hacker News should avoid resorting mockery, snideness and other forms of belligerence, as you have exhibited, regardless of how strongly they disagree with the comment they're responding to. You seem to be making excuses and refusing to acknowledge your mistake. Regarding the format, I prefer written exchanges over voice debates, which don't provide adequate time to deliberate on each other's points and our pwn responses. Before we digress too far, let's remember that this discussion originated from a debate about colonialism and, more fundamentally, the merit of Western values. The link submitted is critical of the notion of the superiority of Western ideas and values in academia. Consider what this has resulted in in practice: In some professional settings, punctuality is being deemphasized because it's associated with white culture, and thus inappropriate to value. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-ask-rick-is-it-racist-for-principals-to-expect-staff-to-be-on-time/2021/12 https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-ask-rick-is-it-rac... Western values, which have contributed to capitalist societies, the Industrial Revolution, the Scientific Revolution, and attempts to establish international laws against slavery and genocide, do possess merit. They should not be indiscriminately considered as having no more merit than any other cultural practices or norms found worldwide. In no other region of the world is the intellectual class arguing that their own culture's values should be deemphasized, and that includes regions that are behind the West in a myriad of socioeconomic metrics. There is no excuse for this, and it needs to stop.
- hmcq6 3y ago
  Respectability politics and semantic arguments aside "Consider what this has resulted in in practice ..." Who cares? Has this actually impacted your life in any way or are you just making a slippery slope argument? "Western values ..." you're just talking to hear yourself talk man. Despite me, indirectly, asking 3 times now I've yet to be provided any kind of evidence connecting "Western Values" to the good things you want to give "Western Values" credit for. So we can't even get to the next step of testing your theory because you won't explain any further. My next step would be to ask you how you grapple with the fact that "Western Values" also brought slavery to the Americas. But I see no point in asking insightful questions because you haven't even articulated whatever connection you think exists between the two concepts. "There is no excuse for this, and it needs to stop." Why? Why is it so wrong to inspect our philosophical frameworks or subjective values? Why does that behavior need to stop?
  - ETH_start 3y ago
    I certainly care if my country becomes more dysfunctional by abandoning merit — in ideas, values, and job applicants — for ideological narratives. These are real-world consequences. Abandoning merit leads, in turn, to dysfunction, which lowers quality of life. That we should try to avoid this is self-evident. Ideas have a tangible impact. Take the scientific revolution. It was a product of Western thinking, and has undeniably advanced global health and technology. This isn't just an abstract claim; these are tangible advancements in the human condition. As for slavery, it existed in the Americas among indigenous peoples before European colonization. While Western expansion was associated with certain negative practices, Western societies were also instrumental in ending slavery as a globally tolerated institution. Highlighting the positive does not imply denying the negative. It implies pursuing an impartial assessment to determine the net impact of Western values. And my stance isn't against inspecting our philosophical frameworks; it's about ensuring impartiality that looks at achievements and flaws equally so as to not understate the merit of Western values.
    - hmcq6 3y ago
      You're moving the goalposts again. Or is this the motte-and-bailey? --- you: "Capitalism ended slavery and genocide" me: "No it didn't" you: "What I meant to say is that Western Values influenced global consensus" --- you: "Punctuality being deemphasized is bad" me: "How has punctuality being deemphasized impacted you personally?" you: "Abandoning merit leads to dysfunction" --- And you can not seriously be offering up the pretense of impartiality? "Highlighting the positive does not imply denying the negative." Ok but highlighting the positive is by definition not impartial. Impartiality would be offering up the facts and letting others interpret those facts to come to their own conclusions. You're offering up a biased conclusion and working backwards with very few supporting facts. "And my stance isn't against inspecting our philosophical frameworks;" ... let me repost the longer quote "In no other region of the world is the intellectual class arguing that their own culture's values should be deemphasized, and that includes regions that are behind the West in a myriad of socioeconomic metrics. There is no excuse for this, and it needs to stop." Arguing that ones own culture's values should be deemphasized is inspecting your philosophical framework from an objective point of view. It is literally the process of removing subjectivity from the established merit system. And you said it "has to stop".

by hmcq6 3y ago

ETH_start 3y ago

We are indeed engaging in a debate by definition, as we're exchanging arguments, irrespective of its formality. People engaging in discussions on Hacker News should avoid resorting mockery, snideness and other forms of belligerence, as you have exhibited, regardless of how strongly they disagree with the comment they're responding to. You seem to be making excuses and refusing to acknowledge your mistake. Regarding the format, I prefer written exchanges over voice debates, which don't provide adequate time to deliberate on each other's points and our pwn responses. Before we digress too far, let's remember that this discussion originated from a debate about colonialism and, more fundamentally, the merit of Western values. The link submitted is critical of the notion of the superiority of Western ideas and values in academia. Consider what this has resulted in in practice: In some professional settings, punctuality is being deemphasized because it's associated with white culture, and thus inappropriate to value. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-ask-rick-is-it-racist-for-principals-to-expect-staff-to-be-on-time/2021/12 https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-ask-rick-is-it-rac... Western values, which have contributed to capitalist societies, the Industrial Revolution, the Scientific Revolution, and attempts to establish international laws against slavery and genocide, do possess merit. They should not be indiscriminately considered as having no more merit than any other cultural practices or norms found worldwide. In no other region of the world is the intellectual class arguing that their own culture's values should be deemphasized, and that includes regions that are behind the West in a myriad of socioeconomic metrics. There is no excuse for this, and it needs to stop.

hmcq6 3y ago
Respectability politics and semantic arguments aside "Consider what this has resulted in in practice ..." Who cares? Has this actually impacted your life in any way or are you just making a slippery slope argument? "Western values ..." you're just talking to hear yourself talk man. Despite me, indirectly, asking 3 times now I've yet to be provided any kind of evidence connecting "Western Values" to the good things you want to give "Western Values" credit for. So we can't even get to the next step of testing your theory because you won't explain any further. My next step would be to ask you how you grapple with the fact that "Western Values" also brought slavery to the Americas. But I see no point in asking insightful questions because you haven't even articulated whatever connection you think exists between the two concepts. "There is no excuse for this, and it needs to stop." Why? Why is it so wrong to inspect our philosophical frameworks or subjective values? Why does that behavior need to stop?
- ETH_start 3y ago
  I certainly care if my country becomes more dysfunctional by abandoning merit — in ideas, values, and job applicants — for ideological narratives. These are real-world consequences. Abandoning merit leads, in turn, to dysfunction, which lowers quality of life. That we should try to avoid this is self-evident. Ideas have a tangible impact. Take the scientific revolution. It was a product of Western thinking, and has undeniably advanced global health and technology. This isn't just an abstract claim; these are tangible advancements in the human condition. As for slavery, it existed in the Americas among indigenous peoples before European colonization. While Western expansion was associated with certain negative practices, Western societies were also instrumental in ending slavery as a globally tolerated institution. Highlighting the positive does not imply denying the negative. It implies pursuing an impartial assessment to determine the net impact of Western values. And my stance isn't against inspecting our philosophical frameworks; it's about ensuring impartiality that looks at achievements and flaws equally so as to not understate the merit of Western values.
  - hmcq6 3y ago
    You're moving the goalposts again. Or is this the motte-and-bailey? --- you: "Capitalism ended slavery and genocide" me: "No it didn't" you: "What I meant to say is that Western Values influenced global consensus" --- you: "Punctuality being deemphasized is bad" me: "How has punctuality being deemphasized impacted you personally?" you: "Abandoning merit leads to dysfunction" --- And you can not seriously be offering up the pretense of impartiality? "Highlighting the positive does not imply denying the negative." Ok but highlighting the positive is by definition not impartial. Impartiality would be offering up the facts and letting others interpret those facts to come to their own conclusions. You're offering up a biased conclusion and working backwards with very few supporting facts. "And my stance isn't against inspecting our philosophical frameworks;" ... let me repost the longer quote "In no other region of the world is the intellectual class arguing that their own culture's values should be deemphasized, and that includes regions that are behind the West in a myriad of socioeconomic metrics. There is no excuse for this, and it needs to stop." Arguing that ones own culture's values should be deemphasized is inspecting your philosophical framework from an objective point of view. It is literally the process of removing subjectivity from the established merit system. And you said it "has to stop".