4 ms·

Racism is sadly quite deep rooted in the US, also from all kinds of people in all kinds of directions. Even not that seldom the way some people fight racism tur

Racism is sadly quite deep rooted in the US, also from all kinds of people in all kinds of directions. Even not that seldom the way some people fight racism turns out to be racist if you look at it from an external POV with a bit of distance.

jsemrau 3y ago
I have lived, worked, and faced racism in 15 countries. Race is always an issue even in the most meritocratic multicultural societies (like Singapore). People will always have a bias about your culture. Just ask any German how many people gave their best Hitler impression when traveling abroad. What I think is new since about 2018 in the US is that perceived victimhood is rewarded. Not actual victimhood, but perceived victimhood.
- gregjor 3y ago
  "German" describes a nationality, not a race. Ask any American how many people -- including Germans -- give their best cowboy impression when traveling abroad.
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    I'm not sure that makes much of a difference. It's just another version of xenophobia.
jonathanstrange 3y ago
It has always amazed me how many people in the US insist on categorizing other people into phenotypical races that we know cannot be justified by genetic research and are also incorrect for tracking ethnic origins and self-identity based conceptions. The explanation is that oppressed groups are often forced to take over inadequate and untenable conceptualizations to identify as a group and fight the oppression. However, at some point you would hope they also start revising those concepts. There was a short trend in this direction but it failed.
- gregjor 3y ago
  Hardly a uniquely American thing. Imagining or identifying racial and ethnic groupings based on superficial features, or just differences in language and clothing, seems a universal human tendency across cultures and time. If Americans seem more prone to referring to race (and I don't think that's true) it perhaps comes from both a history of immigration and multiculturalism, and a history of slavery and racial oppression.
  - foofie 3y ago
    > Hardly a uniquely American thing. I don't agree. It's one thing to claim that people are aware of "race", but that's not the issue being discussed here. The issue being discussed is the degree of institutionalization that racism is embedded in US culture, to the point that unwittingly racist news stories are published in mainstream media, and once that's pointed out regular everyday people come at their defense supposedly for being something normal, totally unaware of actually proving and reinforcing the point. For contrast, in some countries the editorial guidelines for mainstream news organizations even discourage referring the nationality of those involved in events, due to concerns those could be abused to further racist beliefs in any way.
    - gregjor 3y ago
      You would have to give some examples. The Atlantic article about curtains refers to relative wealth and status, not to race. The wealthy white people in Brooklyn Heights, mentioned exactly once to accurately describe the demographics of that neighborhood, are used as examples of people who don't hang curtains on their windows (or don't close their curtains). According to the author that's a status display, nothing to do with race. If you think American mainstream media don't have editorial guidelines that discourage mentioning race or nationality, you might want to look at those editorial guidelines, because American mainstream media -- such as The Atlantic -- most certainly do have guidelines. In fact they follow guidelines so cautious that people from Trump to Musk have accused the mainstream media of censorship and bias and "wokeness" because the media does leave off things like race and nationality and even relative social status, bending over backwards to appear fair.
nickdothutton 3y ago
I am curious to know the opinion of those in the US about what I think of as the great American experiment. Namely the bringing together of people (races) from all-over the world in a society. From obviously troubled beginnings (slavery, a civil qwar, various political assassinations all the way into the 1900s), to the 50s, the civil right turmoil and eventual settlement. Attempt at making a mixing pot through to multiculturalism today. Has it worked? What to try next? Will a steady state be reached? What does that look like?
- neodymiumphish 3y ago
  I'd say it's worked as expected in the areas where it's actually implemented. In most suburbs, there is a racial mix that's (probably, I don't know the exact metrics) close to the national demographic, and in those areas the culture is fairly homogenous. I grew up as a kid in the military and lived in multiple suburbs during and after my parents' service. The schools, neighborhoods, and local businesses all had what felt like a fair spread of various races, and I never observed any race-based hate. This was across portions of Mississippi, Oklahoma, Ohio, and California. Heavily urban areas seem to shift toward race-oriented living areas, where I think there's a lot more animosity between races because a white person in a predominantly black area or a black person in Chinatown stands out more and generates concern that they aren't a part of the area's culture.

jsemrau 3y ago

I have lived, worked, and faced racism in 15 countries. Race is always an issue even in the most meritocratic multicultural societies (like Singapore). People will always have a bias about your culture. Just ask any German how many people gave their best Hitler impression when traveling abroad. What I think is new since about 2018 in the US is that perceived victimhood is rewarded. Not actual victimhood, but perceived victimhood.

gregjor 3y ago
"German" describes a nationality, not a race. Ask any American how many people -- including Germans -- give their best cowboy impression when traveling abroad.
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  I'm not sure that makes much of a difference. It's just another version of xenophobia.

jonathanstrange 3y ago

It has always amazed me how many people in the US insist on categorizing other people into phenotypical races that we know cannot be justified by genetic research and are also incorrect for tracking ethnic origins and self-identity based conceptions. The explanation is that oppressed groups are often forced to take over inadequate and untenable conceptualizations to identify as a group and fight the oppression. However, at some point you would hope they also start revising those concepts. There was a short trend in this direction but it failed.

gregjor 3y ago
Hardly a uniquely American thing. Imagining or identifying racial and ethnic groupings based on superficial features, or just differences in language and clothing, seems a universal human tendency across cultures and time. If Americans seem more prone to referring to race (and I don't think that's true) it perhaps comes from both a history of immigration and multiculturalism, and a history of slavery and racial oppression.
- foofie 3y ago
  > Hardly a uniquely American thing. I don't agree. It's one thing to claim that people are aware of "race", but that's not the issue being discussed here. The issue being discussed is the degree of institutionalization that racism is embedded in US culture, to the point that unwittingly racist news stories are published in mainstream media, and once that's pointed out regular everyday people come at their defense supposedly for being something normal, totally unaware of actually proving and reinforcing the point. For contrast, in some countries the editorial guidelines for mainstream news organizations even discourage referring the nationality of those involved in events, due to concerns those could be abused to further racist beliefs in any way.
  - gregjor 3y ago
    You would have to give some examples. The Atlantic article about curtains refers to relative wealth and status, not to race. The wealthy white people in Brooklyn Heights, mentioned exactly once to accurately describe the demographics of that neighborhood, are used as examples of people who don't hang curtains on their windows (or don't close their curtains). According to the author that's a status display, nothing to do with race. If you think American mainstream media don't have editorial guidelines that discourage mentioning race or nationality, you might want to look at those editorial guidelines, because American mainstream media -- such as The Atlantic -- most certainly do have guidelines. In fact they follow guidelines so cautious that people from Trump to Musk have accused the mainstream media of censorship and bias and "wokeness" because the media does leave off things like race and nationality and even relative social status, bending over backwards to appear fair.

nickdothutton 3y ago

I am curious to know the opinion of those in the US about what I think of as the great American experiment. Namely the bringing together of people (races) from all-over the world in a society. From obviously troubled beginnings (slavery, a civil qwar, various political assassinations all the way into the 1900s), to the 50s, the civil right turmoil and eventual settlement. Attempt at making a mixing pot through to multiculturalism today. Has it worked? What to try next? Will a steady state be reached? What does that look like?

neodymiumphish 3y ago
I'd say it's worked as expected in the areas where it's actually implemented. In most suburbs, there is a racial mix that's (probably, I don't know the exact metrics) close to the national demographic, and in those areas the culture is fairly homogenous. I grew up as a kid in the military and lived in multiple suburbs during and after my parents' service. The schools, neighborhoods, and local businesses all had what felt like a fair spread of various races, and I never observed any race-based hate. This was across portions of Mississippi, Oklahoma, Ohio, and California. Heavily urban areas seem to shift toward race-oriented living areas, where I think there's a lot more animosity between races because a white person in a predominantly black area or a black person in Chinatown stands out more and generates concern that they aren't a part of the area's culture.