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Is there no limit to the lengths people will go to blame the US for everything? No blame at all for EU leaders?

aredox 3y ago
Don't worry, I blame both. Here is sone anti-americanists saying the same (except... they're not anti-americanists): https://www.americanprogress.org/article/case-eu-defense/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/case-eu-defense/ Maybe, before the EU tries again to better its defenses, can we have the security that our "ally" won't try to kneecap it once again? Because we invested billions in e.g. developing Rafale fighters, and then the US bankrolls its F-35 everywhere. This isn't tenable.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  Ah we share peak nihilism then.
coldtea 3y ago
>No blame at all for EU leaders? You mean the "client state" representatives promoted, pre-approved, wined, and dined by the US (ever since WWII and the Marshall plan, and to an even greated degree after the last decently strong and independent European statesmen faded off 2-3 decades ago)?
aredox 3y ago
"The role played by the United States makes the situation worse. Efforts at improving defense industrial cooperation, namely by the EU, have often been met by fierce opposition from the United States. After all, American defense contractors greatly benefit from inking contracts across Europe that deprive European companies of business. Thus efforts by Europe to get its industrial act together are met by stiff resistance by American administrations, which channel the concerns of U.S. companies about being locked out of the European market. For instance, after the EU announced plans for a new European Defense Fund and an initiative to develop new weapons systems, U.S. Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis and other Trump administration officials strongly objected and aggressively lobbied for U.S. companies to have access to the paltry EU funds. This rather petty concern, U.S. access to the European defense market, has not gone away under Biden. In fact, the Biden administration has also forcefully lobbied EU member states on defense initiatives. Even with a war on, the major focus of the EU-U.S. security dialogue has been, at the insistence of Washington, finalizing an innocuous “administrative arrangement” granting the United States potential access to more EU defense euros. U.S. opposition has had a significant chilling effect on attempts to improve coordination. It just takes a few skittish EU member states, worried about the reaction from their security guarantor, to pump the brakes on collective EU efforts. Partly because of such obstruction, European defense cooperation has declined over the past decade." "Ultimately, of course, the perilous state of European armed forces is the fault of European governments. But NATO’s role in bringing about this state of affairs also deserves scrutiny. " https://archive.ph/4o4r5#selection-2067.0-2137.22 https://archive.ph/4o4r5#selection-2067.0-2137.22
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  The worst part of debates is that every time you make predictions that will surely be tested correct or incorrect, people find away to shift the goalposts in a stupefying way. US: "EU, please up your NATO spending, US is spending 3% GDP while some of you are dragging your feet with 1%. Also please stop funding Putin via nat. gas." EU: "No. That's ridiculous." US: "Russia will invade Ukraine presumably killing thousands." Sycophants: "No. That's ridiculous and would be awful. Fake news. Propaganda." Russia invades Ukraine EU: "Actually US it's your fault we don't have much defense." Sycophants: "Actually US it's your fault, and if it's not, well it's not so bad, and if it's bad, well it's not our problem."

Don't worry, I blame both. Here is sone anti-americanists saying the same (except... they're not anti-americanists): https://www.americanprogress.org/article/case-eu-defense/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/case-eu-defense/ Maybe, before the EU tries again to better its defenses, can we have the security that our "ally" won't try to kneecap it once again? Because we invested billions in e.g. developing Rafale fighters, and then the US bankrolls its F-35 everywhere. This isn't tenable.

throwaway5959 3y ago
Ah we share peak nihilism then.

coldtea 3y ago

>No blame at all for EU leaders? You mean the "client state" representatives promoted, pre-approved, wined, and dined by the US (ever since WWII and the Marshall plan, and to an even greated degree after the last decently strong and independent European statesmen faded off 2-3 decades ago)?

aredox 3y ago

"The role played by the United States makes the situation worse. Efforts at improving defense industrial cooperation, namely by the EU, have often been met by fierce opposition from the United States. After all, American defense contractors greatly benefit from inking contracts across Europe that deprive European companies of business. Thus efforts by Europe to get its industrial act together are met by stiff resistance by American administrations, which channel the concerns of U.S. companies about being locked out of the European market. For instance, after the EU announced plans for a new European Defense Fund and an initiative to develop new weapons systems, U.S. Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis and other Trump administration officials strongly objected and aggressively lobbied for U.S. companies to have access to the paltry EU funds. This rather petty concern, U.S. access to the European defense market, has not gone away under Biden. In fact, the Biden administration has also forcefully lobbied EU member states on defense initiatives. Even with a war on, the major focus of the EU-U.S. security dialogue has been, at the insistence of Washington, finalizing an innocuous “administrative arrangement” granting the United States potential access to more EU defense euros. U.S. opposition has had a significant chilling effect on attempts to improve coordination. It just takes a few skittish EU member states, worried about the reaction from their security guarantor, to pump the brakes on collective EU efforts. Partly because of such obstruction, European defense cooperation has declined over the past decade." "Ultimately, of course, the perilous state of European armed forces is the fault of European governments. But NATO’s role in bringing about this state of affairs also deserves scrutiny. " https://archive.ph/4o4r5#selection-2067.0-2137.22 https://archive.ph/4o4r5#selection-2067.0-2137.22

reducesuffering 3y ago
The worst part of debates is that every time you make predictions that will surely be tested correct or incorrect, people find away to shift the goalposts in a stupefying way. US: "EU, please up your NATO spending, US is spending 3% GDP while some of you are dragging your feet with 1%. Also please stop funding Putin via nat. gas." EU: "No. That's ridiculous." US: "Russia will invade Ukraine presumably killing thousands." Sycophants: "No. That's ridiculous and would be awful. Fake news. Propaganda." Russia invades Ukraine EU: "Actually US it's your fault we don't have much defense." Sycophants: "Actually US it's your fault, and if it's not, well it's not so bad, and if it's bad, well it's not our problem."