3 ms·

Ohh you're not a serious person. Got it. If anyone... I guess any children are reading this my tip off was: "It ended slavery and genocide worldwide." This...

by hmcq6 3y ago

Ohh you're not a serious person. Got it. If anyone... I guess any children are reading this my tip off was: "It ended slavery and genocide worldwide." This... is an absurd thing to claim. I'm not even gonna address OP anymore because this is flat-earth levels of bullshit. It's the definition of correlation does not equal causation. First of all, capitalism didn't end slavery. I can't speak for the whole globe but it sure as fuck didn't end slavery in America. The US stopped paying taxes to the monarchy in 1765. 10 years later we had the revolutionary war. In 1776 the Declaration of Independence was signed, in 1787 the constitution was signed. We still had slaves in the US. In 1862 the slaves were "freed" but it took 3 more years for news to travel and for slavery to actually be abolished in the US. Even still black people were effectively denied many rights until the 1960's So, whichever date you want to pick out of that soup and decide "this is when capitalism solved slavery", you're wrong. And that doesn't even touch on American capitalists fencing slave labor in the modern day/recent past. Second, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides I'm not going to go point by point but I guarenteeeeeee you can find examples in that list to disprove the second half of the quote. Like there's literally a genocide going on right now and both the parties committing genocide are capitalists, but... yeah I don't even know how to engage with this level of head-empty-diamond-hands-stronk

ETH_start 3y ago
Ohh you're not a serious person. Got it. If anyone... I guess any children are reading this my tip off was: " You gotta stop debating people like this on Hacker News. Even if you disagree with someone, you should refrain from mockery/sarcasm that evokes flame wars. First of all, capitalism didn't end slavery. Western states, which were among the most capitalist in the world, played a significant role in ending slavery as a global institution. The British Empire, the most prominent colonial power, embarked on a century-long global campaign that compelled numerous states to formally abolish slavery, a practice that had existed since the dawn of human history. And yes, slavery and genocide still exist and occur. My comment was simplistic, as I assumed the reader would grasp the point I was trying to convey. My point was that there is now a global consensus that slavery and genocide are unacceptable, and this consensus did not exist in the pre-capitalist era. This consensus has resulted in slavery/genocide becoming far less prevalent than they were in the past, as any quantitative analysis reveals. And the emergence of this consensus was due primarily to the influence of predominantly capitalist states like the United States, and before it, the British Empire.
- hmcq6 3y ago
  This isn't a debate. There's no debate moderator. There's no points. If you wanna schedule something formal send me some contact info, we'll put it on twitch, but either way debates don't prove anything. This is an internet community. I'm trying not to be too much of a dickhead but I'll be damned if I can't call an idea stupid. You said a silly thing. It's like saying "2 + 2 = 5" with no further explanation. Doesn't mean you're dumb. We all make mistakes. But it's one mistake to type it and it's a second mistake to send it and think "hell yeah, people will read that and know what I mean". And now you're coming back and doubling down with a "no you didn't understand me". No, man. No, I did understand you. You're just making a claim that doesn't hold weight. You've offered no more proof of your claim than I have that... hmm lets think... "lightbulbs solved slavery". Your argument is akin to me saying: "Lightbulb, invented 1879. Know what you saw a lot of in 1870 that you don't see any more? slavery. Know what you see a lot of now that they didn't have in 1870? That's right, lightbulbs ended slavery. My point was that there is now a global consensus that slavery and genocide are unacceptable, and this consensus did not exist in the pre-lightbulb era." And like, both our theories are fun theories, but you haven't shown your work to convince anyone that your theory is correct. You're just vaguely gesturing at literally all of history and saying "see". Why even drop the "well, ackshually" in the first place if you don't want to do the work of arguing your case?
  - ETH_start 3y ago
    We are indeed engaging in a debate by definition, as we're exchanging arguments, irrespective of its formality. People engaging in discussions on Hacker News should avoid resorting mockery, snideness and other forms of belligerence, as you have exhibited, regardless of how strongly they disagree with the comment they're responding to. You seem to be making excuses and refusing to acknowledge your mistake. Regarding the format, I prefer written exchanges over voice debates, which don't provide adequate time to deliberate on each other's points and our pwn responses. Before we digress too far, let's remember that this discussion originated from a debate about colonialism and, more fundamentally, the merit of Western values. The link submitted is critical of the notion of the superiority of Western ideas and values in academia. Consider what this has resulted in in practice: In some professional settings, punctuality is being deemphasized because it's associated with white culture, and thus inappropriate to value. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-ask-rick-is-it-racist-for-principals-to-expect-staff-to-be-on-time/2021/12 https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-ask-rick-is-it-rac... Western values, which have contributed to capitalist societies, the Industrial Revolution, the Scientific Revolution, and attempts to establish international laws against slavery and genocide, do possess merit. They should not be indiscriminately considered as having no more merit than any other cultural practices or norms found worldwide. In no other region of the world is the intellectual class arguing that their own culture's values should be deemphasized, and that includes regions that are behind the West in a myriad of socioeconomic metrics. There is no excuse for this, and it needs to stop.

by hmcq6 3y ago

ETH_start 3y ago

Ohh you're not a serious person. Got it. If anyone... I guess any children are reading this my tip off was: " You gotta stop debating people like this on Hacker News. Even if you disagree with someone, you should refrain from mockery/sarcasm that evokes flame wars. First of all, capitalism didn't end slavery. Western states, which were among the most capitalist in the world, played a significant role in ending slavery as a global institution. The British Empire, the most prominent colonial power, embarked on a century-long global campaign that compelled numerous states to formally abolish slavery, a practice that had existed since the dawn of human history. And yes, slavery and genocide still exist and occur. My comment was simplistic, as I assumed the reader would grasp the point I was trying to convey. My point was that there is now a global consensus that slavery and genocide are unacceptable, and this consensus did not exist in the pre-capitalist era. This consensus has resulted in slavery/genocide becoming far less prevalent than they were in the past, as any quantitative analysis reveals. And the emergence of this consensus was due primarily to the influence of predominantly capitalist states like the United States, and before it, the British Empire.

hmcq6 3y ago
This isn't a debate. There's no debate moderator. There's no points. If you wanna schedule something formal send me some contact info, we'll put it on twitch, but either way debates don't prove anything. This is an internet community. I'm trying not to be too much of a dickhead but I'll be damned if I can't call an idea stupid. You said a silly thing. It's like saying "2 + 2 = 5" with no further explanation. Doesn't mean you're dumb. We all make mistakes. But it's one mistake to type it and it's a second mistake to send it and think "hell yeah, people will read that and know what I mean". And now you're coming back and doubling down with a "no you didn't understand me". No, man. No, I did understand you. You're just making a claim that doesn't hold weight. You've offered no more proof of your claim than I have that... hmm lets think... "lightbulbs solved slavery". Your argument is akin to me saying: "Lightbulb, invented 1879. Know what you saw a lot of in 1870 that you don't see any more? slavery. Know what you see a lot of now that they didn't have in 1870? That's right, lightbulbs ended slavery. My point was that there is now a global consensus that slavery and genocide are unacceptable, and this consensus did not exist in the pre-lightbulb era." And like, both our theories are fun theories, but you haven't shown your work to convince anyone that your theory is correct. You're just vaguely gesturing at literally all of history and saying "see". Why even drop the "well, ackshually" in the first place if you don't want to do the work of arguing your case?
- ETH_start 3y ago
  We are indeed engaging in a debate by definition, as we're exchanging arguments, irrespective of its formality. People engaging in discussions on Hacker News should avoid resorting mockery, snideness and other forms of belligerence, as you have exhibited, regardless of how strongly they disagree with the comment they're responding to. You seem to be making excuses and refusing to acknowledge your mistake. Regarding the format, I prefer written exchanges over voice debates, which don't provide adequate time to deliberate on each other's points and our pwn responses. Before we digress too far, let's remember that this discussion originated from a debate about colonialism and, more fundamentally, the merit of Western values. The link submitted is critical of the notion of the superiority of Western ideas and values in academia. Consider what this has resulted in in practice: In some professional settings, punctuality is being deemphasized because it's associated with white culture, and thus inappropriate to value. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-ask-rick-is-it-racist-for-principals-to-expect-staff-to-be-on-time/2021/12 https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-ask-rick-is-it-rac... Western values, which have contributed to capitalist societies, the Industrial Revolution, the Scientific Revolution, and attempts to establish international laws against slavery and genocide, do possess merit. They should not be indiscriminately considered as having no more merit than any other cultural practices or norms found worldwide. In no other region of the world is the intellectual class arguing that their own culture's values should be deemphasized, and that includes regions that are behind the West in a myriad of socioeconomic metrics. There is no excuse for this, and it needs to stop.