6 ms·

Nobody needs any new ideas for urban planning. Urban planning mostly just makes everything worse when it's tried, so what's needed is ideas for how to make the

Nobody needs any new ideas for urban planning. Urban planning mostly just makes everything worse when it's tried, so what's needed is ideas for how to make the planners go away. I think having an infinite power source via plugging it in will work well enough for power in this case.

rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago
> Urban planning mostly just makes everything worse when it's tried Is that generally true or only in the US? I’m also wondering what you suggest we should plan urban centers with if it isn’t the methods of urban planning itself.
- astrange 3y ago
  No, it's even worse in other Anglo countries, and China, Brazil, etc. (not sure of the details of the last one, just remember something about planned cities not working) The US just has an unusually large money and land budget to spend on car dependency, but other countries have made their housing even less affordable.
juliendorra 3y ago
Do you think urban planning made Amsterdam worse in the last 40 years? That it made Paris worse? Or Barcelona? All these cities have been greatly improved because they planned it (after some terrible decisions too, especially all the decisions related to making more cars enter the cities). All great cities have had several planning phases, over centuries
- astrange 3y ago
  The good parts of Amsterdam and Paris come from undoing previous bad ideas, and Paris is still too expensive because of height limits, so I don't think it's an impressive showing yet. Good Asian cities' planning efforts are mostly making illegal to let NIMBYs have input on anything.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    The height limits are a good thing. Keeps the city human scale. That’s why it’s expensive. Well, at least that’s part of it.
    - astrange 3y ago
      You're not supposed to look up at the sky while you walk, so I think it's fine.
      - ericmay 3y ago
        Why aren’t you supposed to look up at the sky?
        astrange 3y ago
        You'll run into people.
        ericmay 3y ago
        That's a good way to make new friends
dymk 3y ago
Tokyo would like a word
easyThrowaway 3y ago
And what the alternative would be? Grafton?[1] Copenaghen or Amsterdam aren't perfect from the Urban planning PoV but after having spent a few months in an LA suburb vs a few years in those cities... Yeah, Thanks but no thanks, I think I'd rather have the imperfectly urban planned towns for the next few years. Matter of taste, I guess. [1]https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-...
- astrange 3y ago
  LA suburbs are not an example of no planning!
  - easyThrowaway 3y ago
    At this point I feel we're arguing a no true scotsman fallacy. Care to point a good example of "unplanned" urban environment with an excellent quality of life for _all_ of its occupants? Outside of, dunno, some exceptionally small villages in the Swiss alps or northern parts of Scandinavia (which are basically unchanged since the middle ages), I can't think of any.
    - astrange 3y ago
      Tokyo is the usual example. (Of course, it has a planned road network too.) American suburbs are just about the most planned things in the world though. Try building an apartment there - you can't do it. They would never exist if it wasn't for artificial zoning laws. Gotta read Strong Towns.

rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago

> Urban planning mostly just makes everything worse when it's tried Is that generally true or only in the US? I’m also wondering what you suggest we should plan urban centers with if it isn’t the methods of urban planning itself.

astrange 3y ago
No, it's even worse in other Anglo countries, and China, Brazil, etc. (not sure of the details of the last one, just remember something about planned cities not working) The US just has an unusually large money and land budget to spend on car dependency, but other countries have made their housing even less affordable.

juliendorra 3y ago

Do you think urban planning made Amsterdam worse in the last 40 years? That it made Paris worse? Or Barcelona? All these cities have been greatly improved because they planned it (after some terrible decisions too, especially all the decisions related to making more cars enter the cities). All great cities have had several planning phases, over centuries

astrange 3y ago
The good parts of Amsterdam and Paris come from undoing previous bad ideas, and Paris is still too expensive because of height limits, so I don't think it's an impressive showing yet. Good Asian cities' planning efforts are mostly making illegal to let NIMBYs have input on anything.
- ericmay 3y ago
  The height limits are a good thing. Keeps the city human scale. That’s why it’s expensive. Well, at least that’s part of it.
  - astrange 3y ago
    You're not supposed to look up at the sky while you walk, so I think it's fine.
    - ericmay 3y ago
      Why aren’t you supposed to look up at the sky?
      - astrange 3y ago
        You'll run into people.
        ericmay 3y ago
        That's a good way to make new friends

dymk 3y ago

Tokyo would like a word

easyThrowaway 3y ago

And what the alternative would be? Grafton?[1] Copenaghen or Amsterdam aren't perfect from the Urban planning PoV but after having spent a few months in an LA suburb vs a few years in those cities... Yeah, Thanks but no thanks, I think I'd rather have the imperfectly urban planned towns for the next few years. Matter of taste, I guess. [1]https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-...

astrange 3y ago
LA suburbs are not an example of no planning!
- easyThrowaway 3y ago
  At this point I feel we're arguing a no true scotsman fallacy. Care to point a good example of "unplanned" urban environment with an excellent quality of life for _all_ of its occupants? Outside of, dunno, some exceptionally small villages in the Swiss alps or northern parts of Scandinavia (which are basically unchanged since the middle ages), I can't think of any.
  - astrange 3y ago
    Tokyo is the usual example. (Of course, it has a planned road network too.) American suburbs are just about the most planned things in the world though. Try building an apartment there - you can't do it. They would never exist if it wasn't for artificial zoning laws. Gotta read Strong Towns.