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> Full disclosure: I drive a Subaru Outback. [...T]he Outback's [gas mileage] is actually shockingly good for an SUV). Funny, I call the Outback an AWD station

> Full disclosure: I drive a Subaru Outback. [...T]he Outback's [gas mileage] is actually shockingly good for an SUV). Funny, I call the Outback an AWD station wagon, not an SUV at all. I've got no problem with that; I'd be much happier if people bought those. Indeed, the very existence of Subarus seems to make most SUVs unnecessary. The only SUV Subaru makes (that I am aware of) is the Forester (and while that's a little larger than my ideal, it's not gigantic). > We need to recognize that there's a wide variety of vehicles in the SUV category. If I were Supreme Ruler, I would permit the Honda CRV (SUV), Toyota RAV4 (SUV), and Ford Maverick (truck) to exist, but no larger (ignoring commercial vehicles). Also station wagons, and minivans up to the size of the Honda Odyssey. (As I am not Supreme Ruler, I recognize that this has all the weight of a random opinion on the Internet.) > Are you actually trying to solve a real problem with what cars are on the road? Or are you just looking for a socially-acceptable group of people to bully and be mean to? Full disclosure: I walk everywhere, or else I take the bus -- and on the rare occasions that I rent or borrow a car, it's typically a small sedan. I react negatively to oversized vehicles (a) because I view them as a threat to my person, and (b) because I'm acutely aware of the arms-race dynamics here. People buy big SUVs because they "feel safer", i.e., in a crash, they are more likely to survive and kill the other driver, rather than the other way around. Recognizing the primal violence underlying this, I respond that the solution is more primal violence, to disincentivize this selfishness and arrest the arms race before it goes any further. None of which, I will add, applies to the Subaru Outback, which I'm totally cool with.

twoWhlsGud 3y ago
Note that Subaru raised the Outback up higher some years ago specifically so it would qualify as a light truck some years ago. So while I agree that it's more station wagonny than most light trucks it actually legally qualifies as one. I remember because I actually wrote a cranky letter to Subaru US about it and they sent back a polite response saying "hey, incentives!" more or less. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/13/business/to-avoid-fuel-limits-subaru-is-turning-a-sedan-into-a-truck.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/13/business/to-avoid-fuel-li...
danaris 3y ago
> Funny, I call the Outback an AWD station wagon, not an SUV at all. Then you're going to need to come up with some better way of defining what a Bad Vehicle is if you want to change policy/culture, because your definition of an SUV doesn't match with reality. When you say something like "we need to make SUV drivers feel ridiculous and humiliated", but you're using a definition of "SUV" that you made up in your head, you're not communicating anything useful or productive to the world at large.
- FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
  We can probably make this more objective by aiming for lower hood heights and lower vehicle masses. Or, crash tests, which currently privilege the driver and passengers, should also consider other road-users, like pedestrians, cyclists, and the drivers of other vehicles -- especially small ones. Fair point though. It's merely a marketing term of the car industry to begin with.
- CRConrad 3y ago
  Easy: Bad Vehicles are over-heavy, fuel-guzzling, dangerous-to-others (body-on-frame, high bonnet, bull bars...) things that are sold as "trucks" or "SUVs" -- you know, the original trucks and SUVs, which definition many people who know shit about cars and trucks remember and still use. Most things that are sold as "trucks" or "SUVs" nowadays aren't necessarily Bad Vehicles, seeing how they're just station wagons on stilts with faux-macho design plastered over the outside. They only lean towards the Bad Vehicles side of things when that silly design goes too far towards dangerous-to-others (high square bonnets, shooting-slit visibility etc) in the name of faux-macho buyer appeal. Detach the bull bars from your Outback and you'll probably be OK.

twoWhlsGud 3y ago

Note that Subaru raised the Outback up higher some years ago specifically so it would qualify as a light truck some years ago. So while I agree that it's more station wagonny than most light trucks it actually legally qualifies as one. I remember because I actually wrote a cranky letter to Subaru US about it and they sent back a polite response saying "hey, incentives!" more or less. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/13/business/to-avoid-fuel-limits-subaru-is-turning-a-sedan-into-a-truck.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/13/business/to-avoid-fuel-li...

danaris 3y ago

> Funny, I call the Outback an AWD station wagon, not an SUV at all. Then you're going to need to come up with some better way of defining what a Bad Vehicle is if you want to change policy/culture, because your definition of an SUV doesn't match with reality. When you say something like "we need to make SUV drivers feel ridiculous and humiliated", but you're using a definition of "SUV" that you made up in your head, you're not communicating anything useful or productive to the world at large.

FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
We can probably make this more objective by aiming for lower hood heights and lower vehicle masses. Or, crash tests, which currently privilege the driver and passengers, should also consider other road-users, like pedestrians, cyclists, and the drivers of other vehicles -- especially small ones. Fair point though. It's merely a marketing term of the car industry to begin with.
CRConrad 3y ago
Easy: Bad Vehicles are over-heavy, fuel-guzzling, dangerous-to-others (body-on-frame, high bonnet, bull bars...) things that are sold as "trucks" or "SUVs" -- you know, the original trucks and SUVs, which definition many people who know shit about cars and trucks remember and still use. Most things that are sold as "trucks" or "SUVs" nowadays aren't necessarily Bad Vehicles, seeing how they're just station wagons on stilts with faux-macho design plastered over the outside. They only lean towards the Bad Vehicles side of things when that silly design goes too far towards dangerous-to-others (high square bonnets, shooting-slit visibility etc) in the name of faux-macho buyer appeal. Detach the bull bars from your Outback and you'll probably be OK.