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We don't need a Dark Forest hypothesis to explain Why No Aliens... because the reality is, the distance between solar systems is so incredibly massive, and the

We don't need a Dark Forest hypothesis to explain Why No Aliens... because the reality is, the distance between solar systems is so incredibly massive, and the impossibility of FTL so real, it doesn't even matter. They'll never make it here, and we'll never make it there, even if we somehow were to communicate. We will be alone in this system forever, get used to it. Maybe a machine or two of ours might make it out someday, but we'll be gone by then anyways.

readthenotes1 3y ago
You're assuming that they are no more capable than we are now it seems
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  The capability is not possible.
- megaman821 3y ago
  They wouldn't have to be that much more capable. If every 10,000 years humans could reach a habitable planet and start a society there, in a few billion years humans would be everywhere.
  - qayxc 3y ago
    And if actual history and real biology are anything to go by, you'd end up with a zoo of civilisations (and remnants thereof) that don't resemble humanity in the slightest and might as well be aliens.
stcredzero 3y ago
the distance between solar systems is so incredibly massive, and the impossibility of FTL so real, it doesn't even matter That also doesn't matter. Another star is going to come close enough to any given star, often enough, that the entire galaxy could be colonized without ever having to travel that far that fast. (Look up Issac Arthur's "Crawlenizing the Galaxy" idea.) we'll be gone by then anyways It's the combination of distance AND civilization longevity that does it. Considering that we are in an exponential process of change, it doesn't seem like we'll be around long enough in our current form as a civilization.
- awb 3y ago
  Communication is still a problem. A colony 5 light years away means 10 years before you get a response. For all intents and purposes most colonies will be independent and unable to act efficiently in unison with other colonies towards a strategic objective. Similar to how humans migrated out of Africa and then discovered each other again after they had created different cultures, belief systems and ways of living.
  - stcredzero 3y ago
    Communication is still a problem. Not for carpeting a galaxy with descendants of humans.
    - awb 3y ago
      Right, but how could colonies over such great distances have any meaningful commonality or purpose? Homo Sapiens evolved ~300k years ago. The Milky Way is ~100k light years across. It’s possible you’d have different species colonizing different sectors of the galaxy. And those species might be just as likely to compete with each other rather than cooperate.
digging 3y ago
Your assertion is wrong (because you're 100% confident about something not knowable), but what's worse, it doesn't even address the question of "Why no aliens?". If alien intelligences were abundant but just "really far away", we'd still expect to have seen them by now.
skywhopper 3y ago
The book posits that FTL travel exists, so it does matter.
1970-01-01 3y ago
Ships powered by pulse fusion reactors can certainly reach other worlds. Robust AI systems could tell us what's going on and be back in time for the year 2100. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion#Project_Daedalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion#Proje...
KineticLensman 3y ago
> the distance between solar systems is so incredibly massive, and the impossibility of FTL so real Those things, and the likely temporal separation of civilizations - where they miss because one peaked one million years before its nearby neighbours. E.g. Proxima Centauri, our nearest star, which per Wikipedia, is 200 million years older than the sun, so a civilization there which matured at the same speed as ours, would likely be long gone.
dwaltrip 3y ago
Traveling at 0.1% the speed of light, one could traverse the galaxy over 40 times since it was formed.
- qayxc 3y ago
  Not really. Unless you assume a couple of things: indestructible, perfect technology and methods to either suspend or prolong lifespans to geological time scales. Even system hopping would have at the very least the requirement of a basically unchanging (both biologically and in terms of politics/society) civilisation. If either of those aren't practically achievable, the idea falls apart quickly.
  - dwaltrip 3y ago
    My main point is that the distance between stars is not physically impossible to overcome, as the original comment suggested.

readthenotes1 3y ago

You're assuming that they are no more capable than we are now it seems

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
The capability is not possible.
megaman821 3y ago
They wouldn't have to be that much more capable. If every 10,000 years humans could reach a habitable planet and start a society there, in a few billion years humans would be everywhere.
- qayxc 3y ago
  And if actual history and real biology are anything to go by, you'd end up with a zoo of civilisations (and remnants thereof) that don't resemble humanity in the slightest and might as well be aliens.

stcredzero 3y ago

the distance between solar systems is so incredibly massive, and the impossibility of FTL so real, it doesn't even matter That also doesn't matter. Another star is going to come close enough to any given star, often enough, that the entire galaxy could be colonized without ever having to travel that far that fast. (Look up Issac Arthur's "Crawlenizing the Galaxy" idea.) we'll be gone by then anyways It's the combination of distance AND civilization longevity that does it. Considering that we are in an exponential process of change, it doesn't seem like we'll be around long enough in our current form as a civilization.

awb 3y ago
Communication is still a problem. A colony 5 light years away means 10 years before you get a response. For all intents and purposes most colonies will be independent and unable to act efficiently in unison with other colonies towards a strategic objective. Similar to how humans migrated out of Africa and then discovered each other again after they had created different cultures, belief systems and ways of living.
- stcredzero 3y ago
  Communication is still a problem. Not for carpeting a galaxy with descendants of humans.
  - awb 3y ago
    Right, but how could colonies over such great distances have any meaningful commonality or purpose? Homo Sapiens evolved ~300k years ago. The Milky Way is ~100k light years across. It’s possible you’d have different species colonizing different sectors of the galaxy. And those species might be just as likely to compete with each other rather than cooperate.

digging 3y ago

Your assertion is wrong (because you're 100% confident about something not knowable), but what's worse, it doesn't even address the question of "Why no aliens?". If alien intelligences were abundant but just "really far away", we'd still expect to have seen them by now.

skywhopper 3y ago

The book posits that FTL travel exists, so it does matter.

1970-01-01 3y ago

Ships powered by pulse fusion reactors can certainly reach other worlds. Robust AI systems could tell us what's going on and be back in time for the year 2100. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion#Project_Daedalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion#Proje...

KineticLensman 3y ago

> the distance between solar systems is so incredibly massive, and the impossibility of FTL so real Those things, and the likely temporal separation of civilizations - where they miss because one peaked one million years before its nearby neighbours. E.g. Proxima Centauri, our nearest star, which per Wikipedia, is 200 million years older than the sun, so a civilization there which matured at the same speed as ours, would likely be long gone.

dwaltrip 3y ago

Traveling at 0.1% the speed of light, one could traverse the galaxy over 40 times since it was formed.

qayxc 3y ago
Not really. Unless you assume a couple of things: indestructible, perfect technology and methods to either suspend or prolong lifespans to geological time scales. Even system hopping would have at the very least the requirement of a basically unchanging (both biologically and in terms of politics/society) civilisation. If either of those aren't practically achievable, the idea falls apart quickly.
- dwaltrip 3y ago
  My main point is that the distance between stars is not physically impossible to overcome, as the original comment suggested.