7 ms·

It's government regulations that made trucks get this big, most people simply buy what is available in the form factor they like. Trucks are the most popular fo

It's government regulations that made trucks get this big, most people simply buy what is available in the form factor they like. Trucks are the most popular form factor in the United States (with pickups a close second)[1], and the manufacturers keep making the cars bigger because of the poorly written CAFE laws[2]. I, and I suspect most Americans with pickups, would prefer to purchase one the size of a '90s F-150 as compared to the monsters of today but manufacturers can't or won't sell me one. Making up some macho strawman to attack actually obfuscates the problem and makes discussing solutions more difficult. [1] https://www.motortrend.com/features/car-types-models-body-styles/#:~:text=SUV,vehicles%20have%20a%20complex%20history https://www.motortrend.com/features/car-types-models-body-st.... [2]https://www.thedrive.com/news/small-cars-are-getting-huge-are-fuel-economy-regulations-to-blame https://www.thedrive.com/news/small-cars-are-getting-huge-ar...

closewith 3y ago
Does anyone call an SUV a truck? Surely pickups are trucks.
- AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
  Some SUVs qualify as trucks under the definitions written into the law.
- skyyler 3y ago
  According to chrysler, the PT Cruiser was a "light truck". I do think it's common for people to call large SUVs like the Ford Excursion "trucks".
  - porkbeer 3y ago
    They were only classed as trucks because they could not pass emmissions otherwise. A great example of the truck laws perverse incentives to automakers.
- el_benhameen 3y ago
  My wife is from the Midwest, and on visits there I’ve regularly heard people refer to suburbans/explorers/etc. as “trucks”. Essentially the same platform, but with an enclosed rear with seats.
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  If you see enough pickup trucks with bed caps you'll start to just view SUVs as those
jewayne 3y ago
>Making up some macho strawman to attack actually obfuscates the problem and makes discussing solutions more difficult. Blaming the government for getting captured by industry also obfuscates the problem and makes discussing solutions more difficult. The current (grotesque) CAFE standards went in during the last months of the Bush administration, as a gift to the automakers.
- sickofparadox 3y ago
  At the end of the day, the government makes the laws - regardless of any influences upon it. I think we both want the laws to change, we just disagree about what changes are needed. I encourage you to call your representatives, as I have done.
- autoexec 3y ago
  It also looks like the solution to the problem isn't to get rid of the regulations, but to change them so that light trucks and giant cars no longer get a break on emissions/fuel economy standards. Revised regulations that incentive smaller cars would solve a lot of problems.
  - jewayne 3y ago
    > Revised regulations that incentive smaller cars would solve a lot of problems. I agree wholeheartedly, but the change in the CAFE standards had another effect that was just as important: it allowed Ford and GM to get out of the market for actual cars (sedans, coupes, and station wagons) almost entirely. Changing back to the CAFE standards from 2007 would probably decimate their current business model, and the political backlash would be severe.
    - CRConrad 3y ago
      If they could switch from making one kind of vehicle to another they can also switch back again.
stcredzero 3y ago
It's government regulations that made trucks get this big, most people simply buy what is available in the form factor they like. Lots of Americans want smaller trucks. I just saw a Netflix show where a main character prized his old Toyota pickup. This is also evidenced in the importation of Japanese "K-car" trucks.
- sickofparadox 3y ago
  >Lots of Americans want smaller trucks I agree! I believe I said similar in my above comment. I'm looking into getting one myself, though I'm apprehensive about purchasing a car built in 99 without being able to test drive or inspect it.
- CRConrad 3y ago
  "Kei cars". It's a Japanese word, not "kay is how we pronounce the letter K".
cameldrv 3y ago
You can still get something like a 90s F-150, but it's now called a midsize truck. The main difference is that the bed will be smaller and the interior will be larger. There are even some smaller unibody trucks like the Maverick coming on the market. What you can't seem to get is something like a first generation Tacoma or 90s S-10 without 4WD that's low to the ground. All of the newer trucks have very high bed sides that make loading them from the side a huge pain even if you're tall.
- sickofparadox 3y ago
  They're a step in the right direction for certain, I have what would now be a mid-size pickup myself, but even the Ford Mavericks are pretty big compared to these 90s cars.
ToucanLoucan 3y ago
> It's government regulations that made trucks get this big This is presented incredibly dishonestly in this context. It's well understood that automakers had their grubby little hands all over emissions regulations in the late Bush admin. They spent oodles of cash, tons of lobbyist time, and BEGGED for the exclusions for trucks that made complete sense at the time for TRUCKS, as in, pickup trucks used by laborers that needed the power and relaxed emissions standards that they asked for. And then, once that was done, set about changing 2/3 of their sales into trucks, so they could continue selling ever larger vehicles at ever higher prices with ever worse fuel economy. > most people simply buy what is available in the form factor they like. Trucks are the most popular form factor in the United States (with pickups a close second)[1] Which is directly traceable to substantial and aggressive marketing pushes by the American auto industry to shove trucks and SUV's down American's throats, because they could sell them for higher prices than the vans and station wagons that were already popular at the time. And even now, the solution proposed for all the issues these oversized stupid machines cause, is more sensors, more cameras, more safety features that, OH WOW, they get to charge more money for! No way! > and the manufacturers keep making the cars bigger because of the poorly written CAFE laws[2]. Again, the way this is framed posits that the CAFE standards were flawed output by the legislators themselves, and not the result of back and forth negotiations with the auto industry for decades prior. > I, and I suspect most Americans with pickups, would prefer to purchase one the size of a '90s F-150 as compared to the monsters of today but manufacturers can't or won't sell me one. Except now after decades of this shit, even if you can find a smaller vehicle, many consumers have (correctly) identified that their neighbors are driving suburban panzers, and not having one yourself puts you and yours at an elevated risk in a collision. Tons of people have reasonably sized vehicles in this country, and if you get t-boned by some jack-off in a lifted F-350 driving one, there is a not-insubstantial chance you're going to die, because those vehicles are not designed with safety in mind: they are designed to appeal to a marketing demographic that has been created: the modern man seeking to reclaim his masculinity because his accounting job doesn't let him imagine himself a hunter seeking the mammoth well enough, or whatever the fuck. > Making up some macho strawman to attack actually obfuscates the problem and makes discussing solutions more difficult. It isn't making up strawmen, it's pointing to a strawman manufactured by the auto industry that needs to be burned. The ONLY reason all these stupid machines are out driving today is because we as a society permit it. That can be changed. We are allowed to simply say that if you cannot demonstrate competence to handle a vehicle of this size, you do not get to drive one, end of discussion. It's not like we haven't had multiple classes of drivers licenses since basically the inception of drivers' licenses for this exact reason: because handling a 55 foot LTL truck is harder than handling a Honda Civic. This is a cultural issue as much as it is a political one. You can't just not take into account the long-term and well documented history of the auto industry and it's involvement here, any more than you can not take into account the documented history of the NRA/gun manufacturers with regard to our gun problem.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
arh68 3y ago
Trucks sure are popular, but gov't regulations didn't "make" them big. Given the popularity of F-250s / 2500s, which hardly meet any CAFE standard, the truckers don't yearn for the Ranger. They like 12mpg turbo diesel. We could repeal CAFE, get Ford to make them, but they still wouldn't sell. Tacoma loyalists keep the mid-size truck alive, but they're just a small fraction of 1500/2500 buyers. People like big trucks, and that's fine: but why blame it on the gov't ?
- njarboe 3y ago
  Why do people like big trucks? Marketing works. Since there has been a 25% import tax on trucks (and SUVs) since the 1960's and not on cars, domestic manufacturers have been trying to get more and more people to buy them instead of cars. Seems to have worked.

closewith 3y ago

Does anyone call an SUV a truck? Surely pickups are trucks.

AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
Some SUVs qualify as trucks under the definitions written into the law.
skyyler 3y ago
According to chrysler, the PT Cruiser was a "light truck". I do think it's common for people to call large SUVs like the Ford Excursion "trucks".
- porkbeer 3y ago
  They were only classed as trucks because they could not pass emmissions otherwise. A great example of the truck laws perverse incentives to automakers.
el_benhameen 3y ago
My wife is from the Midwest, and on visits there I’ve regularly heard people refer to suburbans/explorers/etc. as “trucks”. Essentially the same platform, but with an enclosed rear with seats.
oh_sigh 3y ago
If you see enough pickup trucks with bed caps you'll start to just view SUVs as those

jewayne 3y ago

>Making up some macho strawman to attack actually obfuscates the problem and makes discussing solutions more difficult. Blaming the government for getting captured by industry also obfuscates the problem and makes discussing solutions more difficult. The current (grotesque) CAFE standards went in during the last months of the Bush administration, as a gift to the automakers.

sickofparadox 3y ago
At the end of the day, the government makes the laws - regardless of any influences upon it. I think we both want the laws to change, we just disagree about what changes are needed. I encourage you to call your representatives, as I have done.
autoexec 3y ago
It also looks like the solution to the problem isn't to get rid of the regulations, but to change them so that light trucks and giant cars no longer get a break on emissions/fuel economy standards. Revised regulations that incentive smaller cars would solve a lot of problems.
- jewayne 3y ago
  > Revised regulations that incentive smaller cars would solve a lot of problems. I agree wholeheartedly, but the change in the CAFE standards had another effect that was just as important: it allowed Ford and GM to get out of the market for actual cars (sedans, coupes, and station wagons) almost entirely. Changing back to the CAFE standards from 2007 would probably decimate their current business model, and the political backlash would be severe.
  - CRConrad 3y ago
    If they could switch from making one kind of vehicle to another they can also switch back again.

stcredzero 3y ago

It's government regulations that made trucks get this big, most people simply buy what is available in the form factor they like. Lots of Americans want smaller trucks. I just saw a Netflix show where a main character prized his old Toyota pickup. This is also evidenced in the importation of Japanese "K-car" trucks.

sickofparadox 3y ago
>Lots of Americans want smaller trucks I agree! I believe I said similar in my above comment. I'm looking into getting one myself, though I'm apprehensive about purchasing a car built in 99 without being able to test drive or inspect it.
CRConrad 3y ago
"Kei cars". It's a Japanese word, not "kay is how we pronounce the letter K".

cameldrv 3y ago

You can still get something like a 90s F-150, but it's now called a midsize truck. The main difference is that the bed will be smaller and the interior will be larger. There are even some smaller unibody trucks like the Maverick coming on the market. What you can't seem to get is something like a first generation Tacoma or 90s S-10 without 4WD that's low to the ground. All of the newer trucks have very high bed sides that make loading them from the side a huge pain even if you're tall.

sickofparadox 3y ago
They're a step in the right direction for certain, I have what would now be a mid-size pickup myself, but even the Ford Mavericks are pretty big compared to these 90s cars.

ToucanLoucan 3y ago

> It's government regulations that made trucks get this big This is presented incredibly dishonestly in this context. It's well understood that automakers had their grubby little hands all over emissions regulations in the late Bush admin. They spent oodles of cash, tons of lobbyist time, and BEGGED for the exclusions for trucks that made complete sense at the time for TRUCKS, as in, pickup trucks used by laborers that needed the power and relaxed emissions standards that they asked for. And then, once that was done, set about changing 2/3 of their sales into trucks, so they could continue selling ever larger vehicles at ever higher prices with ever worse fuel economy. > most people simply buy what is available in the form factor they like. Trucks are the most popular form factor in the United States (with pickups a close second)[1] Which is directly traceable to substantial and aggressive marketing pushes by the American auto industry to shove trucks and SUV's down American's throats, because they could sell them for higher prices than the vans and station wagons that were already popular at the time. And even now, the solution proposed for all the issues these oversized stupid machines cause, is more sensors, more cameras, more safety features that, OH WOW, they get to charge more money for! No way! > and the manufacturers keep making the cars bigger because of the poorly written CAFE laws[2]. Again, the way this is framed posits that the CAFE standards were flawed output by the legislators themselves, and not the result of back and forth negotiations with the auto industry for decades prior. > I, and I suspect most Americans with pickups, would prefer to purchase one the size of a '90s F-150 as compared to the monsters of today but manufacturers can't or won't sell me one. Except now after decades of this shit, even if you can find a smaller vehicle, many consumers have (correctly) identified that their neighbors are driving suburban panzers, and not having one yourself puts you and yours at an elevated risk in a collision. Tons of people have reasonably sized vehicles in this country, and if you get t-boned by some jack-off in a lifted F-350 driving one, there is a not-insubstantial chance you're going to die, because those vehicles are not designed with safety in mind: they are designed to appeal to a marketing demographic that has been created: the modern man seeking to reclaim his masculinity because his accounting job doesn't let him imagine himself a hunter seeking the mammoth well enough, or whatever the fuck. > Making up some macho strawman to attack actually obfuscates the problem and makes discussing solutions more difficult. It isn't making up strawmen, it's pointing to a strawman manufactured by the auto industry that needs to be burned. The ONLY reason all these stupid machines are out driving today is because we as a society permit it. That can be changed. We are allowed to simply say that if you cannot demonstrate competence to handle a vehicle of this size, you do not get to drive one, end of discussion. It's not like we haven't had multiple classes of drivers licenses since basically the inception of drivers' licenses for this exact reason: because handling a 55 foot LTL truck is harder than handling a Honda Civic. This is a cultural issue as much as it is a political one. You can't just not take into account the long-term and well documented history of the auto industry and it's involvement here, any more than you can not take into account the documented history of the NRA/gun manufacturers with regard to our gun problem.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

arh68 3y ago

Trucks sure are popular, but gov't regulations didn't "make" them big. Given the popularity of F-250s / 2500s, which hardly meet any CAFE standard, the truckers don't yearn for the Ranger. They like 12mpg turbo diesel. We could repeal CAFE, get Ford to make them, but they still wouldn't sell. Tacoma loyalists keep the mid-size truck alive, but they're just a small fraction of 1500/2500 buyers. People like big trucks, and that's fine: but why blame it on the gov't ?

njarboe 3y ago
Why do people like big trucks? Marketing works. Since there has been a 25% import tax on trucks (and SUVs) since the 1960's and not on cars, domestic manufacturers have been trying to get more and more people to buy them instead of cars. Seems to have worked.