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I'm not taking a pro- or anti-EV stance here. It must be stressed and truly appreciated just how long ICE vehicles have been developed and continuously refined

I'm not taking a pro- or anti-EV stance here. It must be stressed and truly appreciated just how long ICE vehicles have been developed and continuously refined at the socioeconomic level. As one example, the gas station is key to our socioeconomic relationship to ICE vehicles. You can say that owning and operating a gas stations isn't a glamorous job, and you'd be right to an extent, but also very wrong. Gas stations (and all the associated infrastructure which enable them to function) provide many, many jobs to society, and every single person who drives an ICE car will visit one. Not many things in society work that way. Gas stations may also serve a social function. I'm aware of a group of individuals in a small Wisconsin town who meet up at the gas station, have some coffee, and share the news with each other. The town is not large enough to sustain a coffee shop or even a cafe. For them, the gas station is a meeting place. They'll not switch from ICE vehicles anytime soon, so that way of life is not under threat. The gas station provides one crucial element: convenience. In the day-to-day, most people just like being able to go to a gas station, fill up in a couple minutes, and be on their way. On a road trip, they might also like being able to stop and have a meal. My understanding of EV pricing when you're traveling is that it's significantly more expensive than home charging. If you have a lot of money, paying for that electricity doesn't matter as much. However, lots of people (especially those with kids) take a road trip, paying time to save money. It seems a bit odd to assume that people with EVs will take a road trip to save money, when it's probably worth their time to just fly most/all of the way and get a rental car.

frumper 3y ago
> In the day-to-day, most people just like being able to go to a gas station, fill up in a couple minutes, and be on their way. It's much more convenient to not stop and just go home. > My understanding of EV pricing when you're traveling is that it's significantly more expensive than home charging. If you have a lot of money, paying for that electricity doesn't matter as much. It is much cheaper at home, but it's still cheaper to supercharge than buy gas. > It seems a bit odd to assume that people with EVs will take a road trip to save money, when it's probably worth their time to just fly most/all of the way and get a rental car. Lots of people take road trips to save money. Driving a 1000 miles is probably at most a few hundred dollars and can carry 4, or more, people. Four flights, plus airport ride/parking, plus rental car is no where near that cheap. That isn't an EV/ICE thing though.
- waterheater 3y ago
  >It's much more convenient to not stop and just go home. Actually, I'd rather spend three minutes to fill up than have my car plugged in overnight, but to each their own. >It is much cheaper at home, but it's still cheaper to supercharge than buy gas. The latter is universally not true, according to this 2023 MotorTrend article: "Owning a Tesla can save you hundreds of dollars a year on fuel costs, but only if you're able to charge at home or find public plugs with free or subsidized electricity. The premium pricing at Superchargers and other public charging stations often makes driving an EV just as expensive as driving an efficient hybrid or gas car" [1]. >Lots of people take road trips to save money. Driving a 1000 miles is probably at most a few hundred dollars and can carry 4, or more, people. Four flights, plus airport ride/parking, plus rental car is no where near that cheap. That isn't an EV/ICE thing though. I'm not too sure about this, but I also haven't looked into it recently, so let's actually look at it in context of a 1000 mile road trip. Assuming an average speed of 70mph, you're looking at about 14.5 hours of pure driving. The average MPG for an ICE car and truck is 24.2 mpg and 17.5 mpg, respectively [2]. The average US gas price is $3.03 [3], though where you do your road trip will matter greatly [4]. With that, 1000 miles in an ICE car or light truck costs $125 and $173 in fuel, respectively. Now, fuel tank capacity will also determine how often you need to refuel, and a rough estimate for tank capacity for a car and truck is 14 and 20 gallons, respectively. Assuming a full tank at the start of the trip, the car and truck will consume 2.95 and 2.86 tanks of gas, respectively. From that, let's be generous and say both the car and truck will stop 3 times to refuel. With normal maintenance, 3 stops should be the maximum required stops over the life of the vehicle. With bathrooms, food, and a leisurely pace, let's assume each stop averages to 20 minutes, which means the minimum of non-driving time on a ICE road trip is 1 hour. Averaging fuel prices, a 1000 mile road trip with an average ICE vehicle will require 3 stops, span 15.5 hours, and cost $150 in fuel. How does an EV stack up against those three items? First, let's look at stops. After reading a bunch of articles to figure out average EV range [5][6][7], and finally finding this site [8], a good average is be 225 miles. Driving 1000 miles, that translates to about 4.5 stops. Next, let's look at total trip time. The 14.5 hour minimum drive time shouldn't significantly vary. Since it takes three minutes to fill a gas tank, charging time is the single important factor increasing total trip with an EV. On a road trip, an L1 or L2 charger is too slow (unless you're getting a hotel, but that is irrelevant), so you'll need a DC fast charger [11][12]. This webpage [13] shows different miles per charging-hour rates across EVs, and the variance is high, ranging from 179 to 868, with a rough average of 470 miles per charging-hour. With an average range of 225 miles and assuming constant charger availability, you'd need about thirty minutes purely to recharge. With a minimum of 4 stops, that's 2 hours of just charging. That beings the trip time to 16.5 hours. Finally, let's look at energy cost. It's basically impossible to pin this down, and I'm not even going to try because there's so much variance. It will probably be, at most, just as expensive as gas. So, compared to the average ICE vehicle, the average EV will require 1.5 more stops, add approximately 1 hour to a 14.5 hour road trip, and will be no more expensive than a gas car. I'm genuinely surprised by that result. It's impressive how far the EV industry has come. I guess new EVs are pretty close to the gas paradigm, assuming you're able and willing to purchase a new car. Still, EV chassis size determines maximum battery size, which ultimately affects maximum charge rates. Compare a 2020 Toyota Yaris with a 2024 Nissan Leaf. The Yaris has 452 miles of range [9], while the Leaf (base model) has 169 miles of range [10]. A road trip in a Yaris is doable, but recharging a Leaf around 6 times with a 50kW charger would add a minimum of six hours to a road trip, which is a bit too much. To increase charge times, I have a strong feeling that EVs will continue trending bigger and bigger, at least until a better battery technology is brought into production. [1] https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-tesla/ https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to... [2] https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10310 https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10310 [3] https://www.gasbuddy.com/charts https://www.gasbuddy.com/charts [4] https://www.gasbuddy.com/gaspricemap https://www.gasbuddy.com/gaspricemap [5] https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml [6] https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ [7] https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32603216/ev-range-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32603216/ev-ra... [8] https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car [9] https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/yaris/specs https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/yaris/specs [10] https://www.drivingelectric.com/nissan/leaf/range https://www.drivingelectric.com/nissan/leaf/range [11] https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/how-long-to-charge-an-electric-car https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/how-long-to-charge-an-el... [12] https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-dc-fast-charging/ https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-dc-fa... [13] https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html
jewayne 3y ago
Many of today's gas stations will survive the transition to EV just fine, just not as gas stations. They already make most of their money via the attached convenience store -- ripping the pumps out will mostly just lower costs.
- waterheater 3y ago
  Good point. Buc-ee's certainly is a testament to that new reality.
rlpb 3y ago
> Gas stations...provide many, many jobs to society However, if they are no longer necessary, then everybody stands to benefit economically because it's an inefficiency that we can eliminate. We can be nostalgic about it and lament tangential benefits that would be lost, but ultimately that's the reality. > My understanding of EV pricing when you're traveling is that it's significantly more expensive than home charging. If you have a lot of money, paying for that electricity doesn't matter as much. However, lots of people (especially those with kids) take a road trip, paying time to save money. It seems a bit odd to assume that people with EVs will take a road trip to save money, when it's probably worth their time to just fly most/all of the way and get a rental car. This doesn't apply to the vast majority of car journeys, and the infrastructure we enjoy at low cost is propped up by those. When they disappear, I don't think the economics will work any more to favour ICE journeys. The infrastructure for electricity distribution will continue to exist since it's used for much more, but the gas distribution network will wither, and gas-based road trips will therefore get more expensive.
- waterheater 3y ago
  >However, if they are no longer necessary, then everybody stands to benefit economically because it's an inefficiency that we can eliminate. We can be nostalgic about it and lament tangential benefits that would be lost, but ultimately that's the reality. Agreed. Seventy years ago, typists were employed by the thousands, but society adjusted, for the better at that. >This doesn't apply to the vast majority of car journeys, and the infrastructure we enjoy at low cost is propped up by those. I, for one, enjoy low-cost infrastructure, and so does anyone struggling to pay their bills. The main reason the EV industry is growing is due to governmental support, not pure customer demand. The cost of EV charging infrastructure will amortize, but the economics of the eventual dominance of EVs (in its current state, mind you) will mostly hurt the poor in the near term, not help them. Perhaps there may yet be a turning point in the future.

frumper 3y ago

> In the day-to-day, most people just like being able to go to a gas station, fill up in a couple minutes, and be on their way. It's much more convenient to not stop and just go home. > My understanding of EV pricing when you're traveling is that it's significantly more expensive than home charging. If you have a lot of money, paying for that electricity doesn't matter as much. It is much cheaper at home, but it's still cheaper to supercharge than buy gas. > It seems a bit odd to assume that people with EVs will take a road trip to save money, when it's probably worth their time to just fly most/all of the way and get a rental car. Lots of people take road trips to save money. Driving a 1000 miles is probably at most a few hundred dollars and can carry 4, or more, people. Four flights, plus airport ride/parking, plus rental car is no where near that cheap. That isn't an EV/ICE thing though.

waterheater 3y ago
>It's much more convenient to not stop and just go home. Actually, I'd rather spend three minutes to fill up than have my car plugged in overnight, but to each their own. >It is much cheaper at home, but it's still cheaper to supercharge than buy gas. The latter is universally not true, according to this 2023 MotorTrend article: "Owning a Tesla can save you hundreds of dollars a year on fuel costs, but only if you're able to charge at home or find public plugs with free or subsidized electricity. The premium pricing at Superchargers and other public charging stations often makes driving an EV just as expensive as driving an efficient hybrid or gas car" [1]. >Lots of people take road trips to save money. Driving a 1000 miles is probably at most a few hundred dollars and can carry 4, or more, people. Four flights, plus airport ride/parking, plus rental car is no where near that cheap. That isn't an EV/ICE thing though. I'm not too sure about this, but I also haven't looked into it recently, so let's actually look at it in context of a 1000 mile road trip. Assuming an average speed of 70mph, you're looking at about 14.5 hours of pure driving. The average MPG for an ICE car and truck is 24.2 mpg and 17.5 mpg, respectively [2]. The average US gas price is $3.03 [3], though where you do your road trip will matter greatly [4]. With that, 1000 miles in an ICE car or light truck costs $125 and $173 in fuel, respectively. Now, fuel tank capacity will also determine how often you need to refuel, and a rough estimate for tank capacity for a car and truck is 14 and 20 gallons, respectively. Assuming a full tank at the start of the trip, the car and truck will consume 2.95 and 2.86 tanks of gas, respectively. From that, let's be generous and say both the car and truck will stop 3 times to refuel. With normal maintenance, 3 stops should be the maximum required stops over the life of the vehicle. With bathrooms, food, and a leisurely pace, let's assume each stop averages to 20 minutes, which means the minimum of non-driving time on a ICE road trip is 1 hour. Averaging fuel prices, a 1000 mile road trip with an average ICE vehicle will require 3 stops, span 15.5 hours, and cost $150 in fuel. How does an EV stack up against those three items? First, let's look at stops. After reading a bunch of articles to figure out average EV range [5][6][7], and finally finding this site [8], a good average is be 225 miles. Driving 1000 miles, that translates to about 4.5 stops. Next, let's look at total trip time. The 14.5 hour minimum drive time shouldn't significantly vary. Since it takes three minutes to fill a gas tank, charging time is the single important factor increasing total trip with an EV. On a road trip, an L1 or L2 charger is too slow (unless you're getting a hotel, but that is irrelevant), so you'll need a DC fast charger [11][12]. This webpage [13] shows different miles per charging-hour rates across EVs, and the variance is high, ranging from 179 to 868, with a rough average of 470 miles per charging-hour. With an average range of 225 miles and assuming constant charger availability, you'd need about thirty minutes purely to recharge. With a minimum of 4 stops, that's 2 hours of just charging. That beings the trip time to 16.5 hours. Finally, let's look at energy cost. It's basically impossible to pin this down, and I'm not even going to try because there's so much variance. It will probably be, at most, just as expensive as gas. So, compared to the average ICE vehicle, the average EV will require 1.5 more stops, add approximately 1 hour to a 14.5 hour road trip, and will be no more expensive than a gas car. I'm genuinely surprised by that result. It's impressive how far the EV industry has come. I guess new EVs are pretty close to the gas paradigm, assuming you're able and willing to purchase a new car. Still, EV chassis size determines maximum battery size, which ultimately affects maximum charge rates. Compare a 2020 Toyota Yaris with a 2024 Nissan Leaf. The Yaris has 452 miles of range [9], while the Leaf (base model) has 169 miles of range [10]. A road trip in a Yaris is doable, but recharging a Leaf around 6 times with a 50kW charger would add a minimum of six hours to a road trip, which is a bit too much. To increase charge times, I have a strong feeling that EVs will continue trending bigger and bigger, at least until a better battery technology is brought into production. [1] https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-tesla/ https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to... [2] https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10310 https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10310 [3] https://www.gasbuddy.com/charts https://www.gasbuddy.com/charts [4] https://www.gasbuddy.com/gaspricemap https://www.gasbuddy.com/gaspricemap [5] https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml [6] https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ [7] https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32603216/ev-range-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32603216/ev-ra... [8] https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car [9] https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/yaris/specs https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/yaris/specs [10] https://www.drivingelectric.com/nissan/leaf/range https://www.drivingelectric.com/nissan/leaf/range [11] https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/how-long-to-charge-an-electric-car https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/how-long-to-charge-an-el... [12] https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-dc-fast-charging/ https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-dc-fa... [13] https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html

jewayne 3y ago

Many of today's gas stations will survive the transition to EV just fine, just not as gas stations. They already make most of their money via the attached convenience store -- ripping the pumps out will mostly just lower costs.

waterheater 3y ago
Good point. Buc-ee's certainly is a testament to that new reality.

rlpb 3y ago

> Gas stations...provide many, many jobs to society However, if they are no longer necessary, then everybody stands to benefit economically because it's an inefficiency that we can eliminate. We can be nostalgic about it and lament tangential benefits that would be lost, but ultimately that's the reality. > My understanding of EV pricing when you're traveling is that it's significantly more expensive than home charging. If you have a lot of money, paying for that electricity doesn't matter as much. However, lots of people (especially those with kids) take a road trip, paying time to save money. It seems a bit odd to assume that people with EVs will take a road trip to save money, when it's probably worth their time to just fly most/all of the way and get a rental car. This doesn't apply to the vast majority of car journeys, and the infrastructure we enjoy at low cost is propped up by those. When they disappear, I don't think the economics will work any more to favour ICE journeys. The infrastructure for electricity distribution will continue to exist since it's used for much more, but the gas distribution network will wither, and gas-based road trips will therefore get more expensive.

waterheater 3y ago
>However, if they are no longer necessary, then everybody stands to benefit economically because it's an inefficiency that we can eliminate. We can be nostalgic about it and lament tangential benefits that would be lost, but ultimately that's the reality. Agreed. Seventy years ago, typists were employed by the thousands, but society adjusted, for the better at that. >This doesn't apply to the vast majority of car journeys, and the infrastructure we enjoy at low cost is propped up by those. I, for one, enjoy low-cost infrastructure, and so does anyone struggling to pay their bills. The main reason the EV industry is growing is due to governmental support, not pure customer demand. The cost of EV charging infrastructure will amortize, but the economics of the eventual dominance of EVs (in its current state, mind you) will mostly hurt the poor in the near term, not help them. Perhaps there may yet be a turning point in the future.