4 ms·

Maybe he should ditch electricity and plumbing too? I mean, if you're going to figure out how this one technology has infested your soul, why not go all the wa

by crusso 15y ago

Maybe he should ditch electricity and plumbing too? I mean, if you're going to figure out how this one technology has infested your soul, why not go all the way? I'm sure there are some Amish* communities that would take you in and let you hammer some nails while you get back to your non-technological inner being. * That's always what they seem to do in movies to the point of being a cliche.

Cushman 15y ago
Is this a serious suggestion? It reads like you're mocking him, which is pretty uncalled for, but I can't be sure.
- crusso 15y ago
  I wouldn't call it serious or mocking, rather I'd call it whimsical speculation designed to generate conversation. I find your attempt to suppress my whimsical speculation designed to generate conversation to be pretty uncalled for.
  - Cushman 15y ago
    I didn't read it as whimsical; I was originally going to write something like "You're quitting smoking? Are you going to quit coffee, too?" It struck me as pretty harsh. I do think there's legitimate value to the idea-- I'd bet most people would be a lot happier without electricity or indoor plumbing than we'd imagine. But I think if somebody decided to try it for a year, a guy saying "No electricity, huh? Are you gonna stop cooking your food, or are you just doing like a halfway thing?" would sound like an asshole. Also, what gives with calling my good-faith request for clarification an "attempt to suppress" you? I could have just downvoted you and moved on if that's what I wanted.
    - polyfractal 15y ago
      > I do think there's legitimate value to the idea-- I'd bet most people would be a lot happier without electricity or indoor plumbing than we'd imagine. I think only someone who has grown up with both of those advances would be able to make this comment with a straight face. Ask anyone who has nearly frozen to death in the winter because they couldn't afford their electricity bill what they think of that statement. Or anyone who nearly died from cholera because of drinking from the nearest river due to no water utilities what they think of that statement. I'm not writing this to be hostile. It is simply a statement that the "good ol' days" were not really so good afterall.
      - Cushman 15y ago
        You're not talking about going without electricity or indoor plumbing. You're talking about being poor. Of course there's a great deal of overlap, but don't mistake the two. I haven't done it myself, but I have a good friend who spent a couple winters in a cabin in rural Vermont. It's not that bad. You buy enough firewood to last, and get water from the well. It gets cold at night, but you've got a roof and a fire and a sleeping bag, you're not going to die. You can walk and hitchhike to the hospital in the nearest town, if you get sick. Really, the biggest issue is loneliness. Sure, you give up a lot of comforts which I wouldn't want to, but people lived that way in good spirits for thousands of years. Empirical evidence suggests we have more or less the same capacity for unhappiness regardless of circumstance.
        look_lookatme 15y ago
        The biggest issue is you spend a great deal of time just doing the things that automation can do in a fraction of the time. If you have a family, "laundry day" is literally a whole day and it is brutal, backbreaking labor. That is already 1/7 of your live devoted to something that is a solved problem.
    - ctdonath 15y ago
      Taking the absurd seriously... I dabble in a blog featuring $1 meals. I get snide quips from people criticizing "oh, but are you taking costs of running a gas/electric stove into account? betcha haven't taken THAT into account!" So...several meals posted (or coming soon) are indeed cooked over an open fire of random deadwood. So lighten up. The query is a half-serious challenge to go a step further. Those of us who HAVE lived without Internet for significant periods know it's not that big a deal (though not trying to trivialize it either) and think a good comparable exercise IS to shut off the main breaker, shred the credit cards, and shift into a lower gear for a while. Sounds harsh to some, sounds like a delightful challenge to others.
      - Cushman 15y ago
        "Lighten up"? Come on, man. I thought you were mocking the guy, but I could see how you might not mean it that way, so rather than run off and accuse you, or drive-by downvote, I asked what you meant. Which I guess you took as a slight against your honor? Clearly I need to stop taking everything so serious.
- civilian 15y ago
  Can't it be both? Paul should seriously abandon these other technological changes. It'll make his year much more of an experience! Meanwhile, we'll be laughing about it.
graeme 15y ago
The internet is pretty distinct. It changes how we think and perceive the world. Electricity is very impactful. But most things that it provides had analogues, at least for the middle to upper classes. Servants fulfilled the role that appliances now play. Horses provided fast enough transport, because the scale of cities were smaller, etc. All analogies will break down somewhere, but most modern electrical conveniences have fairly close analogues in the past. But nothing seems like the internet.
- crusso 15y ago
  Imagine a culture that was pre-electricity. Bring someone from that culture to 1990. Show them cell phones, televisions, space travel, etc. Imagine the cultural shock... the "advanced technology == magic" effect. Now imagine showing someone from 1990 what things are like in 2012 with the internet we have today. While they would think it's "neat" and even "amazing", the magic effect would not be there. The internet is cool, no doubt, but it's not the leap that electricity has been.
  - graeme 15y ago
    It's a good point. Energy's changes are highly visible and impactful, especially on a societal level. I would argue they're less impactful when we consider how an individual actually lives day to day. The effects of the internet are largely invisible. Some people today still don't get the internet at all. The world around them changed, but they can't notice. But for someone who does get the internet, it can completely change how you live your life.
  - cpeterso 15y ago
    > Now imagine showing someone from 1990 what things are like in 2012 with the internet we have today. While they would think it's "neat" and even "amazing", the magic effect would not be there. I wonder what the biggest "future shock" for (let's say) a 1995 web user visiting the 2012 web? Video and bandwidth seem like the biggest differences, but as you point out, neither are "magic" from a 1995 context.
    - 15y ago
K2h 15y ago
What was the quote I heard recently on NPR.. something like: "Without internet it is back to 1970, without electricity, its back to 1890" something like that anyway.
- tomjen3 15y ago
  Any idea what show that was?
  - K2h 15y ago
    im looking and i cant find the source. i must have been zoning out on that commute and remembered it wrong.

by crusso 15y ago

Cushman 15y ago

Is this a serious suggestion? It reads like you're mocking him, which is pretty uncalled for, but I can't be sure.

crusso 15y ago
I wouldn't call it serious or mocking, rather I'd call it whimsical speculation designed to generate conversation. I find your attempt to suppress my whimsical speculation designed to generate conversation to be pretty uncalled for.
- Cushman 15y ago
  I didn't read it as whimsical; I was originally going to write something like "You're quitting smoking? Are you going to quit coffee, too?" It struck me as pretty harsh. I do think there's legitimate value to the idea-- I'd bet most people would be a lot happier without electricity or indoor plumbing than we'd imagine. But I think if somebody decided to try it for a year, a guy saying "No electricity, huh? Are you gonna stop cooking your food, or are you just doing like a halfway thing?" would sound like an asshole. Also, what gives with calling my good-faith request for clarification an "attempt to suppress" you? I could have just downvoted you and moved on if that's what I wanted.
  - polyfractal 15y ago
    > I do think there's legitimate value to the idea-- I'd bet most people would be a lot happier without electricity or indoor plumbing than we'd imagine. I think only someone who has grown up with both of those advances would be able to make this comment with a straight face. Ask anyone who has nearly frozen to death in the winter because they couldn't afford their electricity bill what they think of that statement. Or anyone who nearly died from cholera because of drinking from the nearest river due to no water utilities what they think of that statement. I'm not writing this to be hostile. It is simply a statement that the "good ol' days" were not really so good afterall.
    - Cushman 15y ago
      You're not talking about going without electricity or indoor plumbing. You're talking about being poor. Of course there's a great deal of overlap, but don't mistake the two. I haven't done it myself, but I have a good friend who spent a couple winters in a cabin in rural Vermont. It's not that bad. You buy enough firewood to last, and get water from the well. It gets cold at night, but you've got a roof and a fire and a sleeping bag, you're not going to die. You can walk and hitchhike to the hospital in the nearest town, if you get sick. Really, the biggest issue is loneliness. Sure, you give up a lot of comforts which I wouldn't want to, but people lived that way in good spirits for thousands of years. Empirical evidence suggests we have more or less the same capacity for unhappiness regardless of circumstance.
      - look_lookatme 15y ago
        The biggest issue is you spend a great deal of time just doing the things that automation can do in a fraction of the time. If you have a family, "laundry day" is literally a whole day and it is brutal, backbreaking labor. That is already 1/7 of your live devoted to something that is a solved problem.
  - ctdonath 15y ago
    Taking the absurd seriously... I dabble in a blog featuring $1 meals. I get snide quips from people criticizing "oh, but are you taking costs of running a gas/electric stove into account? betcha haven't taken THAT into account!" So...several meals posted (or coming soon) are indeed cooked over an open fire of random deadwood. So lighten up. The query is a half-serious challenge to go a step further. Those of us who HAVE lived without Internet for significant periods know it's not that big a deal (though not trying to trivialize it either) and think a good comparable exercise IS to shut off the main breaker, shred the credit cards, and shift into a lower gear for a while. Sounds harsh to some, sounds like a delightful challenge to others.
    - Cushman 15y ago
      "Lighten up"? Come on, man. I thought you were mocking the guy, but I could see how you might not mean it that way, so rather than run off and accuse you, or drive-by downvote, I asked what you meant. Which I guess you took as a slight against your honor? Clearly I need to stop taking everything so serious.
civilian 15y ago
Can't it be both? Paul should seriously abandon these other technological changes. It'll make his year much more of an experience! Meanwhile, we'll be laughing about it.

graeme 15y ago

The internet is pretty distinct. It changes how we think and perceive the world. Electricity is very impactful. But most things that it provides had analogues, at least for the middle to upper classes. Servants fulfilled the role that appliances now play. Horses provided fast enough transport, because the scale of cities were smaller, etc. All analogies will break down somewhere, but most modern electrical conveniences have fairly close analogues in the past. But nothing seems like the internet.

crusso 15y ago
Imagine a culture that was pre-electricity. Bring someone from that culture to 1990. Show them cell phones, televisions, space travel, etc. Imagine the cultural shock... the "advanced technology == magic" effect. Now imagine showing someone from 1990 what things are like in 2012 with the internet we have today. While they would think it's "neat" and even "amazing", the magic effect would not be there. The internet is cool, no doubt, but it's not the leap that electricity has been.
- graeme 15y ago
  It's a good point. Energy's changes are highly visible and impactful, especially on a societal level. I would argue they're less impactful when we consider how an individual actually lives day to day. The effects of the internet are largely invisible. Some people today still don't get the internet at all. The world around them changed, but they can't notice. But for someone who does get the internet, it can completely change how you live your life.
- cpeterso 15y ago
  > Now imagine showing someone from 1990 what things are like in 2012 with the internet we have today. While they would think it's "neat" and even "amazing", the magic effect would not be there. I wonder what the biggest "future shock" for (let's say) a 1995 web user visiting the 2012 web? Video and bandwidth seem like the biggest differences, but as you point out, neither are "magic" from a 1995 context.
  - 15y ago

K2h 15y ago

What was the quote I heard recently on NPR.. something like: "Without internet it is back to 1970, without electricity, its back to 1890" something like that anyway.

tomjen3 15y ago
Any idea what show that was?
- K2h 15y ago
  im looking and i cant find the source. i must have been zoning out on that commute and remembered it wrong.