5 ms·

They wouldn't be recycled if they were also used as a credential for quality of work. If you're a metal worker who wants to migrate to a new town, and wants to

by yendor 3y ago

They wouldn't be recycled if they were also used as a credential for quality of work. If you're a metal worker who wants to migrate to a new town, and wants to work at my forge, how do I know you can do quality work? Sure, these could be stolen but I'm assuming a master metal worker knows the right questions to ask to verify it's legitimate.

INTPenis 3y ago
I don't think ancient roman society worked that way. Traveling is expensive first of all, carrying stuff if even more expensive. You carry what you need, not metal trinkets. And also your reputation is based mostly on word of mouth. That's how it still works in rural societies today. If there were any such certification for metalurgists it would have been a small one like a ring or a bracelet.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  Ancient Roman society was not Medieval Europe, there was very little serfdom, especially among those with any skill whatsoever, so plenty of people moved from place to place, likely dozens or hundreds of times in their lives. There were plenty of captured slaves from conquered peoples, but skilled metalworkers would hardly belong to that group.
  - garciansmith 3y ago
    The vast majority of people would never have willingly traveled far from their birthplace, in medieval Europe or the Roman Empire. This is especially true for those who had few skills. You could do basic labor in your own village, but how could you leave without any money or support network (e.g., a family)? Why would people trust you elsewhere? The dynamic was probably different in larger cities, of which there were more in Roman times compared to the (at least early) medieval period though. This had little to do with serfdom, and practices that would fit under what we might call serfdom were extremely varied from time and place. It would have been very rare for someone to have the means, ability, and desire to move far from their home yet couldn't because they were somehow legally bound to land owned by a lord (who only had power over that one area anyhow).
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      The speculation is that there were created by advanced apprentices. What we’d now call “journeymen.” Most people didn’t move around maybe, but I wouldn’t be that surprised to find that they did.
      - throwup238 3y ago
        They absolutely would have moved around since one of the most common ways to get the apprenticeships was to sign up to help with an army that was mobilizing for war. Militaries needed a lot of blacksmiths to tag along as support and they needed a lot of apprentices for manual labor. When they came back from, they often had a little more choice in where to go back to so they had quite a bit more mobility over all.
        InitialLastName 3y ago
        Not just that, but "head out with the military, stay where you end up (or somewhere along the route)" is a tried-and-true method of moving people throughout history. How else would you end up with Latin dialects spoken over a range from Portugal to the Black Sea?
        ffgjgf1 3y ago
        > How else would you end up with Latin dialects spoken over a range from Portugal to the Black Sea? Same way we ended with almost everyone in Ireland speaking English as their main language? violent conquest, followed by a brutal subjugation and a cultural genocide.
        InitialLastName 3y ago
        Sure, but also (and corollary to the first three) "leaving people behind in power who speak English".
    - shuntress 3y ago
      People definitely travelled. For business, religion, and pleasure. There wouldn't be such extensive roads if they didn't.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    > there was very little serfdom Serfdom (or a comparable system) and other strong legal limitations on social mobility were certainly a thing in the 300s. > so plenty of people moved from place to place, likely dozens or hundreds of times in their lives. I’m not sure how is it particularly different from medieval Europe in that way? But there are other reasons why traveling and moving to different regions was relatively rare for most people (e.g. almost everyone was extremely reliant on their local social networks, so moving to a different community was very costly). Of course metalworkers and other highly skilled craftsmen were probably always one of the most mobile groups (in pre-Roman times and during the middle ages as well)
karaterobot 3y ago
You're right that the master metal worker should be able to sniff out a fraud, but then what role does the dodecahedron play? It would be like me applying to a programming job by showing up with a ZIP file of some code I'd written in the past, which of course I promise I didn't steal from a better programmer. You'd probably give it very little credence compared to either personal references or work done in front of you.
- zoky 3y ago
  If your dodecahedron were essentially your “resume”, you’d go out of your way to keep it safe from thieves. Besides, stealing one wouldn’t do you much good, as you’d be discovered as a fraud pretty quickly based on the quality of your work. Having one of these in your possession would be enough to get you in the door, as well as giving your potential employer a quick and easy way to judge the quality of your work. The alternative would be to require a prospective employee to make a dodecahedron in front of you, which doesn’t really provide all that much of a benefit in the long term.
  - karaterobot 3y ago
    I don't see anything about the dodecahedrons being signed or stamped or branded in any way, so I can't buy them being a resume. Seems like if it were your personal proof of employability, and you cared a lot about it not being stolen, the first thing you'd put some mark on it to indicate it was yours. And then there's the fact that some of them have been found buried in coin hoards, which doesn't make sense (why would you collect a craftsman's portfolio piece and store it with your treasure?).
    - NoobSaibot135 3y ago
      > found buried in coin hoards Has anyone ever tried matching the sizes/circumferences of the coins with the holes? Could have been used as a auto-coin sorting device?
- Sander_Marechal 3y ago
  > It would be like me applying to a programming job by showing up with a ZIP file of some code I'd written in the past This is pretty much how it worked pre-internet

by yendor 3y ago

INTPenis 3y ago

I don't think ancient roman society worked that way. Traveling is expensive first of all, carrying stuff if even more expensive. You carry what you need, not metal trinkets. And also your reputation is based mostly on word of mouth. That's how it still works in rural societies today. If there were any such certification for metalurgists it would have been a small one like a ring or a bracelet.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
Ancient Roman society was not Medieval Europe, there was very little serfdom, especially among those with any skill whatsoever, so plenty of people moved from place to place, likely dozens or hundreds of times in their lives. There were plenty of captured slaves from conquered peoples, but skilled metalworkers would hardly belong to that group.
- garciansmith 3y ago
  The vast majority of people would never have willingly traveled far from their birthplace, in medieval Europe or the Roman Empire. This is especially true for those who had few skills. You could do basic labor in your own village, but how could you leave without any money or support network (e.g., a family)? Why would people trust you elsewhere? The dynamic was probably different in larger cities, of which there were more in Roman times compared to the (at least early) medieval period though. This had little to do with serfdom, and practices that would fit under what we might call serfdom were extremely varied from time and place. It would have been very rare for someone to have the means, ability, and desire to move far from their home yet couldn't because they were somehow legally bound to land owned by a lord (who only had power over that one area anyhow).
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    The speculation is that there were created by advanced apprentices. What we’d now call “journeymen.” Most people didn’t move around maybe, but I wouldn’t be that surprised to find that they did.
    - throwup238 3y ago
      They absolutely would have moved around since one of the most common ways to get the apprenticeships was to sign up to help with an army that was mobilizing for war. Militaries needed a lot of blacksmiths to tag along as support and they needed a lot of apprentices for manual labor. When they came back from, they often had a little more choice in where to go back to so they had quite a bit more mobility over all.
      - InitialLastName 3y ago
        Not just that, but "head out with the military, stay where you end up (or somewhere along the route)" is a tried-and-true method of moving people throughout history. How else would you end up with Latin dialects spoken over a range from Portugal to the Black Sea?
        ffgjgf1 3y ago
        > How else would you end up with Latin dialects spoken over a range from Portugal to the Black Sea? Same way we ended with almost everyone in Ireland speaking English as their main language? violent conquest, followed by a brutal subjugation and a cultural genocide.
        InitialLastName 3y ago
        Sure, but also (and corollary to the first three) "leaving people behind in power who speak English".
  - shuntress 3y ago
    People definitely travelled. For business, religion, and pleasure. There wouldn't be such extensive roads if they didn't.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  > there was very little serfdom Serfdom (or a comparable system) and other strong legal limitations on social mobility were certainly a thing in the 300s. > so plenty of people moved from place to place, likely dozens or hundreds of times in their lives. I’m not sure how is it particularly different from medieval Europe in that way? But there are other reasons why traveling and moving to different regions was relatively rare for most people (e.g. almost everyone was extremely reliant on their local social networks, so moving to a different community was very costly). Of course metalworkers and other highly skilled craftsmen were probably always one of the most mobile groups (in pre-Roman times and during the middle ages as well)

karaterobot 3y ago

You're right that the master metal worker should be able to sniff out a fraud, but then what role does the dodecahedron play? It would be like me applying to a programming job by showing up with a ZIP file of some code I'd written in the past, which of course I promise I didn't steal from a better programmer. You'd probably give it very little credence compared to either personal references or work done in front of you.

zoky 3y ago
If your dodecahedron were essentially your “resume”, you’d go out of your way to keep it safe from thieves. Besides, stealing one wouldn’t do you much good, as you’d be discovered as a fraud pretty quickly based on the quality of your work. Having one of these in your possession would be enough to get you in the door, as well as giving your potential employer a quick and easy way to judge the quality of your work. The alternative would be to require a prospective employee to make a dodecahedron in front of you, which doesn’t really provide all that much of a benefit in the long term.
- karaterobot 3y ago
  I don't see anything about the dodecahedrons being signed or stamped or branded in any way, so I can't buy them being a resume. Seems like if it were your personal proof of employability, and you cared a lot about it not being stolen, the first thing you'd put some mark on it to indicate it was yours. And then there's the fact that some of them have been found buried in coin hoards, which doesn't make sense (why would you collect a craftsman's portfolio piece and store it with your treasure?).
  - NoobSaibot135 3y ago
    > found buried in coin hoards Has anyone ever tried matching the sizes/circumferences of the coins with the holes? Could have been used as a auto-coin sorting device?
Sander_Marechal 3y ago
> It would be like me applying to a programming job by showing up with a ZIP file of some code I'd written in the past This is pretty much how it worked pre-internet