5 ms·

Can't say much about the US, but around here I suppose if the cyclists would stick to the traffic regulations there would be somewhat less aggression against th

by soco 3y ago

Can't say much about the US, but around here I suppose if the cyclists would stick to the traffic regulations there would be somewhat less aggression against them.

ljf 3y ago
If you've ever been around cars (in a car, as a cyclist or as a pedestrian) and sat and watched them for any period - you'll see a huge number of traffic offenses committed by those in cars - mainly using phones, but also speeding, red light jumping, aggressive under and over-taking. But for some reason most people are blind to this and don't get aggressive with drivers. Why might that be?
- marcandre 3y ago
  You forgot not signaling when turning and changing lanes...
  - wiredfool 3y ago
    And driving/parking on sidewalks/footpaths. In the last 2 years of riding bikes and walking the dog, my two closest calls with cars have been on the sidewalk during walkies.
- trgn 3y ago
  Level of responsibility between driver and cyclist is categorically different. A driver will kill when inattentive or impatient. This disconnect between magnitude of input (slouched like a bag of potatoes, dozing) and magnitude of output (casually demolishing a building) is unnatural, it breaks the brain. It's easier to blame the weak, the system, the potholes.
- yungporko 3y ago
  people aren't blind to this at all, being pissed off about it even has it's own name (road rage)
  - ljf 3y ago
    I'd argue it is different in that just seeing or talking about cyclists will often draw anger online and in person - most people don't feel the same way about cars or drivers. Getting angry when someone cuts you off is different to being angry about cyclists just existing.
    - yungporko 3y ago
      i guess that's because it's a chore and arguably dangerous to share the road with cyclists no matter what they're doing, and not only when they're ignoring the rules of the road personally i just cycle on footpaths, i'm not really interested in what the law says. me getting hit by a car is a much more dangerous and likely situation than me riding into a pedestrian, and police aren't going to abandon their car on the road to chase me on foot.
    - D13Fd 3y ago
      > being angry about cyclists just existing. I don't like some cyclists because of their blatant and unsafe disregard for the rules. It's not uncommon to see: - Cyclists ignoring red lights - Cyclists ignoring stop signs - Cyclists riding on a busy sidewalk - Cyclists yelling at pedestrians to move rather than stopping at an intersection as required - Cyclists taking up the entire lane and not permitting cars to pass - Cyclists going the wrong way down a one-way street Some of the worst offenders are e-bike users, who can move very fast and in unexpected ways. It's no fun to have someone silently fly by you from behind, inches away, at 20mph while they are riding what's basically a motorcycle on the sidewalk. I frequently walk in the city, and scooters/bicycles are far more of a hazard than cars. They often can't decide whether they want to be pedestrians or cars, and they often don't follow the rules for either, putting everyone (including themselves) at risk.
      - tonyg 3y ago
        > Cyclists taking up the entire lane and not permitting cars to pass This is explicitly permitted in most places and is often the only safe thing to do. In a situation like that, if you can't overtake such a bike (or car, or tractor) safely, you must wait until it is safe. The bike (or car or tractor) has the right to the entire lane.
- scythe 3y ago
  >But for some reason most people are blind to this and don't get aggressive with drivers. I'm not sure if this is serious, but it's one of the more obviously false claims I've seen on Hacker News: https://everytownresearch.org/reports-of-road-rage-shootings-are-on-the-rise/ https://everytownresearch.org/reports-of-road-rage-shootings... >Experiencing aggressive driving on the road is not uncommon—roughly eight in 10 drivers surveyed by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety reported having at least one incident in the month before the survey. In response to your other comment: >angry about cyclists just existing. I don't think these people are angry at cyclists per se at all, they're angry about a perceived anti-car sociopolitical shift, and cyclists are just a visible artifact of that.
  - ljf 3y ago
    I can only assume that you are not a cyclist? I've just ridden down the road safely and legally and had people shout, swear and swerve their cars at me. Believe me, people ARE angry at cyclists - it might be for the reasons you suggest, but their anger is directed at the humans on the bikes.
avianlyric 3y ago
I wish. If drivers stuck to traffic regulations it would be safer for cyclists. The number of cars I see jumping red lights while cycling is obscene, the number of drivers who deliberately closed pass cyclists is also obscene. And that’s before we get to drivers who deliberately injure cyclists, like the guy who deliberately ran me down and hospitalised me for the crime of not wanting him to overtake me while passing through a narrowing in the road that wasn’t wide enough for both of us.
- zimpenfish 3y ago
  Anecdatum: A week ago, I went to the supermarket across the road. It's a staggered crossing on a main road (Old Kent Road) (with a stupidly designed junction.) In two crossings, I counted 15-20 cars that jumped the red light - either "accidentally" (by entering the junction without a clear exit) or deliberately (speeding up, not slowing down when it changes to yellow, etc.) That was about 5 minutes of time out of a two hour peak period - I'd be amazed if you didn't get several hundred an hour if you sat there and counted. There are, alas, no cameras on this junction - probably because MetPol would be doing nothing but processing these violations 24/7...
  - avianlyric 3y ago
    Ha, I think I know the junctions you’re talking about, near the ASDA right? I avoid going near Old Kent road in anything except a car. That road is an absolute death trap filled with drivers who seem to have no regard for anyone not enclosed in steel, and even then you need to have your wits about when driving. It strikes me as insane that road with so much pedestrian traffic, lined with shops, in a part of London where only something like 30% of the population drives, has so few provisions for pedestrian or cycle safely. With pavements barely wide enough for walking, covered in obstructions, and road markings that looks more like an IQ test, than anything helpful.
    - zimpenfish 3y ago
      > I think I know the junctions you’re talking about, near the ASDA right? Exactly that one, yes. > I avoid going near Old Kent road in anything except a car Yeah, I used to cycle it a fair bit 10-15 years ago but I wouldn't bother these days either (plus there are decent cycleway options for avoiding it.)
vdaea 3y ago
The fact that even those who don't drive cars hate cyclists says something. As a pedestrian I see myself much more endangered by cyclists, which swerve everywhere (including the pavement), than by cars, which stay within their lanes.
- piva00 3y ago
  Like what? Edit since you edited yourself (only their first sentence was in the comment when I first replied): > The fact that even those who don't drive cars hate cyclists says something. As a pedestrian I see myself much more endangered by cyclists, which swerve everywhere (including the pavement), than by cars, which stay within their lanes. I've only seen swerving cyclists everywhere when infrastructure for cycling is poor or non-existent. Anywhere where there's a minimally decent infrastructure I don't see cyclists sharing space with pedestrians on sidewalks, nor swerving crazily around. Maybe it's an issue with not providing appropriate infrastructure instead? If there weren't roads you'd see cars not following lanes, etc.
  - throwaway44773 3y ago
    This is funny for me, just coming back from Vietnam where most of the traffic is motorcycles/scooters. All the behavior that is ascribed to bicyclists here is how motorcyclists behave over there. They drive on the sidewalk (when it's possible, because most sidewalks are usually blocked by parked scooters, among other things). They do not stop at red lights, they do not stop at pedestrian crossings (even honking their horn at you to get out of the way). This is simply how cyclists behave in the absence of incentives to act otherwise. You don't solve this problem by having more infrastructure, you solve this problem by brainwashing the cyclists and drivers to follow the rules, and enforcing the rules.
pard68 3y ago
I don't know about where you live but often as not in the US (varies by state) cyclists have different laws to abide by then cars. Most motorists (and cyclists for that matter) are wholly unaware of this.
jabroni_salad 3y ago
Motorcycles get treated just as bad. Cruising in the right lane at normal speed? Minding your own business at a stoplight? Someone will take it upon themselves to make sure you are paying attention and the penalty for failure is that you die. Car people see anything 'weird' and just lose their minds to the point that killing another human is an acceptable outcome to them. It's extremely reliable. Get a bike and you will find out exactly how many psychopaths are out there.
- runamuck 3y ago
  I found the opposite at Red Lights. People see the actual human (me) and act with empathy. Or perhaps they see the knuckle plating on my tactical gloves and think twice about starting a problem.
marcandre 3y ago
If only the traffic regulations, and roads were actually designed for bikes. Check the amazing "Not Just Bikes" channel on Stop signs, intelligent traffic lights, and read on Idaho stop. Let's not take existing regulations like the "absolute truth and ultimate way of being". Jaywalking used to be illegal, and in my country at least, pot went from being a crime to being sold by state stores.
treyd 3y ago
The difficulty is that the design of cycling infrastructure in many cities (but to be fair, especially in the US) is so poor that it's actually more dangerous to follow the standard cycling rules than it is to take certain liberties away from them.
Lio 3y ago
That's a strawman argument. EDIT: I make it a point of honour to try to stick to the Highway Code whether on my bike or in my car. Still random drivers harass me when I'm on my bike. I had someone lean out of a car and try to put a plastic bag over my head when I was cycling once. I would love to hear what I was supposed to have done to justify that. You just have to look at how the press drone on about "lycra clad louts". There's an obsession with identifying us by what we wear as a justification for violence. That's not hurt feelings but actual broken bones and blood violence. Off the top of my head I can think of several newspaper articles calling for barbed wire to be strung across cyclepaths in the UK (Hahaha, joking of course!) and reports where that happened and someone was seriously injured. All in the same paper (Hahaha, no connection obviously!) YouTube is full of people in cars attacking cyclists and it's got fuck all to do with breaking traffic regulations.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  If you never break a single traffic law while driving you must be very difficult to drive around. Not excusing the other crazy stuff you've put up with. That's insane.
  - Lio 3y ago
    I'm not saying I never break traffic rules, I'm saying I don't deliberately do so. I don't run through red lights or use my mobile phone. Not sure why that would make me difficult to drive around. If I'm on a motorway I overtake and when I've finished my manoeuvre and I just move over again. If I see an amber light then I do what the Highway code suggests and stop if doing so won't cause a problem. If I see a red light definitely stop.
    - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
      I thought you meant never-ever. If you do what the highway code suggests as you describe, it sounds like you're a good defensive driver. I think you can see why I'm asking though, as there's a big difference between never breaking a traffic rule and making to a point to avoid doing so deliberately, especially the egregious ones.
the_snooze 3y ago
Even when there's dedicated bike infrastructure, cars seem to love encroaching on that space, in a completely unpredictable, selfish, and dangerous manner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w4mfGa22ZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w4mfGa22ZY
Kalium 3y ago
Where I am, I get a lot of aggressive behavior from drivers because I am sticking to the traffic regulations and they don't like it. The laws here very explicitly give me a clear right to use almost all roads. Many drivers imagine that bicycles are not permitted in roads and some take it upon themselves to make my life dangerous in an effort to enforce that.
evantbyrne 3y ago
No, not in my experiences at all. Road rage against non-car traffic seems to be mostly based on the fact that they mildly inconvenient and easy targets. Unfortunately, psychopaths and people with poor impulse control live amongst us and are allowed to drive. Let's be absolutely clear about what's going on here: motorists murder cyclists all the time.

by soco 3y ago

Can't say much about the US, but around here I suppose if the cyclists would stick to the traffic regulations there would be somewhat less aggression against them.

ljf 3y ago

If you've ever been around cars (in a car, as a cyclist or as a pedestrian) and sat and watched them for any period - you'll see a huge number of traffic offenses committed by those in cars - mainly using phones, but also speeding, red light jumping, aggressive under and over-taking. But for some reason most people are blind to this and don't get aggressive with drivers. Why might that be?

marcandre 3y ago
You forgot not signaling when turning and changing lanes...
- wiredfool 3y ago
  And driving/parking on sidewalks/footpaths. In the last 2 years of riding bikes and walking the dog, my two closest calls with cars have been on the sidewalk during walkies.
trgn 3y ago
Level of responsibility between driver and cyclist is categorically different. A driver will kill when inattentive or impatient. This disconnect between magnitude of input (slouched like a bag of potatoes, dozing) and magnitude of output (casually demolishing a building) is unnatural, it breaks the brain. It's easier to blame the weak, the system, the potholes.
yungporko 3y ago
people aren't blind to this at all, being pissed off about it even has it's own name (road rage)
- ljf 3y ago
  I'd argue it is different in that just seeing or talking about cyclists will often draw anger online and in person - most people don't feel the same way about cars or drivers. Getting angry when someone cuts you off is different to being angry about cyclists just existing.
  - yungporko 3y ago
    i guess that's because it's a chore and arguably dangerous to share the road with cyclists no matter what they're doing, and not only when they're ignoring the rules of the road personally i just cycle on footpaths, i'm not really interested in what the law says. me getting hit by a car is a much more dangerous and likely situation than me riding into a pedestrian, and police aren't going to abandon their car on the road to chase me on foot.
  - D13Fd 3y ago
    > being angry about cyclists just existing. I don't like some cyclists because of their blatant and unsafe disregard for the rules. It's not uncommon to see: - Cyclists ignoring red lights - Cyclists ignoring stop signs - Cyclists riding on a busy sidewalk - Cyclists yelling at pedestrians to move rather than stopping at an intersection as required - Cyclists taking up the entire lane and not permitting cars to pass - Cyclists going the wrong way down a one-way street Some of the worst offenders are e-bike users, who can move very fast and in unexpected ways. It's no fun to have someone silently fly by you from behind, inches away, at 20mph while they are riding what's basically a motorcycle on the sidewalk. I frequently walk in the city, and scooters/bicycles are far more of a hazard than cars. They often can't decide whether they want to be pedestrians or cars, and they often don't follow the rules for either, putting everyone (including themselves) at risk.
    - tonyg 3y ago
      > Cyclists taking up the entire lane and not permitting cars to pass This is explicitly permitted in most places and is often the only safe thing to do. In a situation like that, if you can't overtake such a bike (or car, or tractor) safely, you must wait until it is safe. The bike (or car or tractor) has the right to the entire lane.
scythe 3y ago
>But for some reason most people are blind to this and don't get aggressive with drivers. I'm not sure if this is serious, but it's one of the more obviously false claims I've seen on Hacker News: https://everytownresearch.org/reports-of-road-rage-shootings-are-on-the-rise/ https://everytownresearch.org/reports-of-road-rage-shootings... >Experiencing aggressive driving on the road is not uncommon—roughly eight in 10 drivers surveyed by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety reported having at least one incident in the month before the survey. In response to your other comment: >angry about cyclists just existing. I don't think these people are angry at cyclists per se at all, they're angry about a perceived anti-car sociopolitical shift, and cyclists are just a visible artifact of that.
- ljf 3y ago
  I can only assume that you are not a cyclist? I've just ridden down the road safely and legally and had people shout, swear and swerve their cars at me. Believe me, people ARE angry at cyclists - it might be for the reasons you suggest, but their anger is directed at the humans on the bikes.

avianlyric 3y ago

I wish. If drivers stuck to traffic regulations it would be safer for cyclists. The number of cars I see jumping red lights while cycling is obscene, the number of drivers who deliberately closed pass cyclists is also obscene. And that’s before we get to drivers who deliberately injure cyclists, like the guy who deliberately ran me down and hospitalised me for the crime of not wanting him to overtake me while passing through a narrowing in the road that wasn’t wide enough for both of us.

zimpenfish 3y ago
Anecdatum: A week ago, I went to the supermarket across the road. It's a staggered crossing on a main road (Old Kent Road) (with a stupidly designed junction.) In two crossings, I counted 15-20 cars that jumped the red light - either "accidentally" (by entering the junction without a clear exit) or deliberately (speeding up, not slowing down when it changes to yellow, etc.) That was about 5 minutes of time out of a two hour peak period - I'd be amazed if you didn't get several hundred an hour if you sat there and counted. There are, alas, no cameras on this junction - probably because MetPol would be doing nothing but processing these violations 24/7...
- avianlyric 3y ago
  Ha, I think I know the junctions you’re talking about, near the ASDA right? I avoid going near Old Kent road in anything except a car. That road is an absolute death trap filled with drivers who seem to have no regard for anyone not enclosed in steel, and even then you need to have your wits about when driving. It strikes me as insane that road with so much pedestrian traffic, lined with shops, in a part of London where only something like 30% of the population drives, has so few provisions for pedestrian or cycle safely. With pavements barely wide enough for walking, covered in obstructions, and road markings that looks more like an IQ test, than anything helpful.
  - zimpenfish 3y ago
    > I think I know the junctions you’re talking about, near the ASDA right? Exactly that one, yes. > I avoid going near Old Kent road in anything except a car Yeah, I used to cycle it a fair bit 10-15 years ago but I wouldn't bother these days either (plus there are decent cycleway options for avoiding it.)

vdaea 3y ago

The fact that even those who don't drive cars hate cyclists says something. As a pedestrian I see myself much more endangered by cyclists, which swerve everywhere (including the pavement), than by cars, which stay within their lanes.

piva00 3y ago
Like what? Edit since you edited yourself (only their first sentence was in the comment when I first replied): > The fact that even those who don't drive cars hate cyclists says something. As a pedestrian I see myself much more endangered by cyclists, which swerve everywhere (including the pavement), than by cars, which stay within their lanes. I've only seen swerving cyclists everywhere when infrastructure for cycling is poor or non-existent. Anywhere where there's a minimally decent infrastructure I don't see cyclists sharing space with pedestrians on sidewalks, nor swerving crazily around. Maybe it's an issue with not providing appropriate infrastructure instead? If there weren't roads you'd see cars not following lanes, etc.
- throwaway44773 3y ago
  This is funny for me, just coming back from Vietnam where most of the traffic is motorcycles/scooters. All the behavior that is ascribed to bicyclists here is how motorcyclists behave over there. They drive on the sidewalk (when it's possible, because most sidewalks are usually blocked by parked scooters, among other things). They do not stop at red lights, they do not stop at pedestrian crossings (even honking their horn at you to get out of the way). This is simply how cyclists behave in the absence of incentives to act otherwise. You don't solve this problem by having more infrastructure, you solve this problem by brainwashing the cyclists and drivers to follow the rules, and enforcing the rules.

pard68 3y ago

I don't know about where you live but often as not in the US (varies by state) cyclists have different laws to abide by then cars. Most motorists (and cyclists for that matter) are wholly unaware of this.

jabroni_salad 3y ago

Motorcycles get treated just as bad. Cruising in the right lane at normal speed? Minding your own business at a stoplight? Someone will take it upon themselves to make sure you are paying attention and the penalty for failure is that you die. Car people see anything 'weird' and just lose their minds to the point that killing another human is an acceptable outcome to them. It's extremely reliable. Get a bike and you will find out exactly how many psychopaths are out there.

runamuck 3y ago
I found the opposite at Red Lights. People see the actual human (me) and act with empathy. Or perhaps they see the knuckle plating on my tactical gloves and think twice about starting a problem.

marcandre 3y ago

If only the traffic regulations, and roads were actually designed for bikes. Check the amazing "Not Just Bikes" channel on Stop signs, intelligent traffic lights, and read on Idaho stop. Let's not take existing regulations like the "absolute truth and ultimate way of being". Jaywalking used to be illegal, and in my country at least, pot went from being a crime to being sold by state stores.

treyd 3y ago

The difficulty is that the design of cycling infrastructure in many cities (but to be fair, especially in the US) is so poor that it's actually more dangerous to follow the standard cycling rules than it is to take certain liberties away from them.

Lio 3y ago

That's a strawman argument. EDIT: I make it a point of honour to try to stick to the Highway Code whether on my bike or in my car. Still random drivers harass me when I'm on my bike. I had someone lean out of a car and try to put a plastic bag over my head when I was cycling once. I would love to hear what I was supposed to have done to justify that. You just have to look at how the press drone on about "lycra clad louts". There's an obsession with identifying us by what we wear as a justification for violence. That's not hurt feelings but actual broken bones and blood violence. Off the top of my head I can think of several newspaper articles calling for barbed wire to be strung across cyclepaths in the UK (Hahaha, joking of course!) and reports where that happened and someone was seriously injured. All in the same paper (Hahaha, no connection obviously!) YouTube is full of people in cars attacking cyclists and it's got fuck all to do with breaking traffic regulations.

DiggyJohnson 3y ago
If you never break a single traffic law while driving you must be very difficult to drive around. Not excusing the other crazy stuff you've put up with. That's insane.
- Lio 3y ago
  I'm not saying I never break traffic rules, I'm saying I don't deliberately do so. I don't run through red lights or use my mobile phone. Not sure why that would make me difficult to drive around. If I'm on a motorway I overtake and when I've finished my manoeuvre and I just move over again. If I see an amber light then I do what the Highway code suggests and stop if doing so won't cause a problem. If I see a red light definitely stop.
  - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
    I thought you meant never-ever. If you do what the highway code suggests as you describe, it sounds like you're a good defensive driver. I think you can see why I'm asking though, as there's a big difference between never breaking a traffic rule and making to a point to avoid doing so deliberately, especially the egregious ones.

the_snooze 3y ago

Even when there's dedicated bike infrastructure, cars seem to love encroaching on that space, in a completely unpredictable, selfish, and dangerous manner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w4mfGa22ZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w4mfGa22ZY

Kalium 3y ago

Where I am, I get a lot of aggressive behavior from drivers because I am sticking to the traffic regulations and they don't like it. The laws here very explicitly give me a clear right to use almost all roads. Many drivers imagine that bicycles are not permitted in roads and some take it upon themselves to make my life dangerous in an effort to enforce that.

evantbyrne 3y ago

No, not in my experiences at all. Road rage against non-car traffic seems to be mostly based on the fact that they mildly inconvenient and easy targets. Unfortunately, psychopaths and people with poor impulse control live amongst us and are allowed to drive. Let's be absolutely clear about what's going on here: motorists murder cyclists all the time.